5 gal. tank?

[Millinex]

Perhaps I need to go back and reread this thread but I felt the direction it was going "How small of a container can we stick an animal in and still have it live?'" not being the best of interest for the captive. When we take on the responsibility of caring for an animal, we also have a financial obligation as well to provide as much as we can for them. This was my main concern. Although overlooked, it almost inspired a caresheet.

Anyway, just expressing my opinions and what works for me as everyone else here on this forum does. I certainly wouldn't want to undermine your top knowledge in reptile husbandry or misguide anyone to raise their animals on a level you consider unfit and substandard.

I highly disagree that was the direction of the thread, although I haven't read it very well due to my lack of care. I only saw arguing about the ability to keep a baby in a 5 gallon tank. I don't know about you, but if I was a baby snake I'd be hiding 99% of the time, because even decent sized insects will take the chance to prey on me. As for "best interest in the captive" I really disagree with this. YOU like the nice made up terrarium, the snake could care less. In all my 15 years of snake keeping, I've seen snakes just as happy in bins as in fancy elaborate cages. I've seen perfect animals come out of bins, and I've seen animals poorly cared for in $400+ setups that "looked pretty" but didn't function properly for the snake.
I'm not saying my way is the end all or is absolutely correct; however, what I am saying is that it can be done, and can be done properly in small environments with no ill effects toward the snake itself.

While this may be true, it never would hurt to have more room than what is adequate. Since we are not necessarily the best judge of what is adequate, then why push it to the smallest possible size?

It doesn't hurt; no, however, it isn't needed either. The snake doesn't care either way. The reason we choose to build big huge cages to display our snakes is because WE want them, not the snake, the snake wants food, water, and proper temps/humidity, other than that it's content to lay under it's hide and relax, it's how they are programmed. Small size is easier to maintain those perfect temps/humidity etc for the individual animal, and easier for us to maintain as well. The snake will not suffer for a smaller cage, if anything, it may feel more secure in the smaller size.

Can't say I agree with all of that even though you make some good points. I can honestly say I've observed the difference in attitude, appetite, and general mental well being of snakes, depending on the size of their enclosure, how it is setup. Big improvements in attitude, growth, appetite, etc. happen in well designed "roomy" enclosures as opposed to living in a box or minimal enclosure. The opposite is true for snakes that enjoy being confined and sedentary.

I can honestly say I've never observed any difference in either. I've tried this with multiple species of snakes, including pine, bulls, gophers, garters, boas, species of pythons etc. I have seen absolutely no difference in growth of the animals, their attitudes, "mental well being" (how do we even judge what a snake "thinks"?). In fact, I'd go as far as to say I get a better feeding response from animals in a smaller container, and in some cases actually grow a bit faster because of it, especially as youngsters.
The only snake I can say really "used" her big display case was my 7' northern pine, she was always out and about, however, it's because she's hungry, she does the exact same thing in her bin, crawling around 24/7 because she's a bottomless pit, however in terms of temperment etc there is 0 difference between environments.

That's like saying that you would never leave the house, go outside, explore the outdoors, or get out to move around, just because you don't need to.

It really isn't. I'm not prey for other animals, so I am free to leave the house. If I had to worry about a T-Rex eating me every time I walked outside, you'd be sure I'd stay in my house unless I absolutely needed something. Again, you're being very anthropomorphic about these animals. They don't "explore the outdoors" because it goes against the natural instinct to survive, and they certainly just don't go around moving around because they just feel like it. Something in the environment, or lack of food, triggers the snake to need to relocate itself. As much as we may wish our snakes had thinking/problem solving skills like us, they simply don't.

And that's the thing. Many snakes will tolerate and even thrive under certain range of conditions. They aren't set at a certain point. I prefer to give them a range of comfort zones they can choose at any given time. Sure, they'll live within the range, but that's not the same thing as giving them a choice.

Sure, a certain range of temperatures and what not are widely accepted by snakes. Hell my bins will fluctuate here and there between a desired temperature range, however it's not out of the animals comfortable range. I don't let them get so dry they are desperately trying to escape and get moisture. Again, it's not bad to give the animal a choice of a large area to use, however, the snake certainly won't suffer for not allowing a broad temperature gradient etc. It all comes down to what you want to provide, and what you think the snake needs, not what the snake thinks it needs. If it was a case of snake thinking it needed XYZ than it would never be able to thrive in a tiny bin and grow and become a decent captive, it would die and the only snakes that would do well would be in 20 gallon tanks heavily planted with lots of hides/plants etc etc. However, clearly the snakes do well in both, so the snake itself doesn't care one way or another.

I beg to differ. The snake does care. A shy snake can be made to be outgoing, a nervous, poor feeder can be made to eat well and be calm, all depending on how you setup their enclosure. I design the enclosures with their comfort in mind first. Ease of access and maintenance comes second, how it looks to me is last and quite frankly irrelevant if the above needs are not met first. Honestly, i've heard the same arguments from anyone who is trying to justify keeping their snakes living in highly confined spaces. There are certain species that are well suited for such living. Garter snakes are not among them.

Do you know why the shy snake is shy? Or the nervous snake is nervous? It's simple, he's taken from his home and put into an environment with a giant who keeps him in a box and wants to poke him and handle him. In nature, his instincts are screaming "predator" and they want to avoid you. After a set amount of time, and handling, the snake no longer sees the giant as a predator, just a giant warm tree. You could do the same thing with nearly every animal currently kept in captivity short of some higher thinking mammals, monitors, and king cobras.

Do define "their comfort of mind" for me? I've never had my snakes tell me what that is, or share with me how they want an enclosure set up. They don't speak english nor write, the only way I can tell if a snake is doing well or not, is if its healthy weight, has some activity, and is able to reproduce. If those are all met, why is my snake so neglected for living in a small bin?

Well said Karen. I'm not accusing or trying to say I'm right, you're wrong. Just voicing my concerns about using such an enclosure. Not saying it couldn't possibly work. I just don't think it's ideal and would be difficult. If you don't think so, then that is fine.

I'm not saying I'm wrong or right, again, I have nothing against people who keep their animals in large enclosures, but at the same point they need to realize it's more for them than it is the snake itself. I also feel that the community who keeps snakes in large enclosures is overly harsh of those of us who keep them in smaller cages. We're told our small cages are "cruel and uncaring" when in all reality, my snakes in bins are just as healthy as yours in aquariums, it's a personal preference.

-Mike