5 gal. tank?

[kibakiba]

I'm not comparing them to humans exactly. An opinion is an opinion. Snakes can get fat, and thus need exercise. Its the same with all animals if you feed them and feed them and they never move, eventually they become a fat, boring lump. I got into garters because they are more active, they move and from my experience they need to move. I don't really care what your experience is with them. My garters move around a lot. It seems cruel to put them in a tiny container and say that they're happy.
My snakes are well fed, they move a lot after eating and they have muscles, what happens when something doesn't use it's muscles? They disappear. They have to work their muscles if they're to stay strong.

Again, this is my opinion. If you don't like it, then too bad. My snakes are 100% healthy in their large, spacious and decorated tanks.

[Millinex]

Well, that snake may be an exception that's not acknowledged by the keeper as one. He may take that one case into consideration and completely overlook the 99 others that lived a significantly shorter life under the same conditions, compared to the other group.

That's something that people do frequently. People take one or a few cases that seem to confirm what they expect and completely ignore or downplay the cases that either don't confirm the theory, or outright disprove it. Examples would be to allow cases of mistreatment, or differences in the skills of the keepers in a comparison between two housing solutions.

Unless the risk of confirmation bias has been eliminated, nothing has really been proven.

People also suck at noticing statistically significant differences.

I have a hard time believing that 1/100 snakes are kept successfully in a rack system. If someone has gone to the effort of having a rack system it's generally because they have a large number or are breeding. In either case the owner knows enough about the animal to understand basic husbandry and follow through on its basic needs. The idea that the snake would die simply because it doesn't have a large cage with branches logs and rocks is simply ******** if I'm going to be honest.

I also fail to see how branches/rocks/a large cage would significantly increase a snakes lifespan, since they ARE NOT essential to the snakes life. It simply goes against the basic understanding of the snake itself to claim it lives a shorter life based upon those factors, because the snake does not "think". In terms of dismissing other cases, I'm not at all. I've seen baby snakes in racks die because they don't eat, but then again, baby snakes die all the time, some never start to eat regardless of conditions. However, look at the people who keep snakes in tubs/racks, they do so because they have the large number and understand the snake. Look at how many ****** middle class individuals go out and purchase a fancy cage, fancy lights, heat pad, this and that, but FAIL to meet the snakes basic needs? I'm not saying anyone here is ********, but it's for examples sake.

Give 2 super experienced keepers 10 baby garter snakes, one with racks, one with large terrariums/enclosures, in both situations the snakes will end up about the same, because the factors determining the snakes healthiness are simple: food, water, heat, humidity, light. Nothing else matters or will define how well the snake grows or lives. If you want to argue a puppy kept in a house with toys will develop better than a puppy in a cage sure, I'm all for that, however, puppies have significantly higher levels of intelligence than a snake.

I'm not comparing them to humans exactly. An opinion is an opinion. Snakes can get fat, and thus need exercise. Its the same with all animals if you feed them and feed them and they never move, eventually they become a fat, boring lump. I got into garters because they are more active, they move and from my experience they need to move. I don't really care what your experience is with them. My garters move around a lot. It seems cruel to put them in a tiny container and say that they're happy.
My snakes are well fed, they move a lot after eating and they have muscles, what happens when something doesn't use it's muscles? They disappear. They have to work their muscles if they're to stay strong.

Again, this is my opinion. If you don't like it, then too bad. My snakes are 100% healthy in their large, spacious and decorated tanks.

Snakes get fat because of OWNERS. Again, take a look at the way the snake reacts in nature, they are opportunistic feeders. If they get a chance to eat, and eat a lot of it, they will, because they don't know when the next meal will be. That's what makes snakes so fascinating, the ability to eat a huge meal, then go months without food. Stick the snake in a tiny enclosure and feed it over and over, the snake will rarely turn down food, of course it will be fat, its instincts are to eat because who knows when next meal is! Any snake keeper who offers as much food as the snake can eat daily is just asking for health problems, and probably knows absolutely nothing in regards to reptile husbandry in general.

Again, the snake is moving in your enclosure because there is some XYZ requirement that is not being met by YOU the provider. We use the same type of saying in the varanid keeping group: if your monitor is at the front of its cage, constantly trying to get out, it doesn't want to play, it's not being taken care of right and needs its husbandry re-evaluated.

Also, I never claimed my snake was "happy" in his small cage. I'm stating snakes DO NOT HAVE EMOTION. The snake is not "happy" the snake does not have feelings, emotion, love, care, any of that. All of those features belong to social mammals, not solitary reptiles. The snakes needs are being met, and it is content on living its natural life hiding in its safe box until it's next meal. Also in terms of "not working muscles" I have yet to see this in any tub-raised individuals. I can safely say you can take my tub raised bull snake, or pine snake, up against most constrictors and they'll give them a run for their money, because despite sitting in a tub almost all their lives, except for educational shows, they have a tremendous amount of power.

I'm not trying to be harsh, however the idea that a snake is "happy" is both ridiculous and stupid.

[justme]

Chantel, I too believe that garters should have enough room to stretch out.

There is activeness, alertness and then there is pacing and nose-rubbing. A significant difference between the two!

This thread has seriously inspired me to bring out the whisky (sadly the most profound statement I've made all day). Folks, I wish we could all have a drink together and lighten up. Good grief!!! ;-)

[Millinex]

Chantel, I too believe that garters should have enough room to stretch out.

There is activeness, alertness and then there is pacing and nose-rubbing. A significant difference between the two!

This thread has seriously inspired me to bring out the whisky (sadly the most profound statement I've made all day). Folks, I wish we could all have a drink together and lighten up. Good grief!!! ;-)

I'm very relaxed; however, if there is one thing that really annoys the hell out of me, it's the idea that a snake has feelings, is happy, or "loves". These things simply aren't true. I have nothing against people who want to keep their snakes in large cages, hell my 3 garters had a 155 gallon back when they where my display animals, and pets. However, the idea that a snake can't be perfectly healthy in a rack system is probably hands down the stupidest things I have ever heard.

[ConcinusMan]

I also fail to see how branches/rocks/a large cage would significantly increase a snakes lifespan, since they ARE NOT essential to the snakes life.

Apparently that's not the only thing you fail to see, but then again, can't do much observing if your snakes are in tubs or racks.

Also, I never claimed my snake was "happy" in his small cage. I'm stating snakes DO NOT HAVE EMOTION.
I'm not trying to be harsh, however the idea that a snake is "happy" is both ridiculous and stupid.

You sound so sure. I am sure they do have some basic emotions. Perhaps not as complex, and definitely not expressed in a familiar way, but they are there. To assume that certain animals have emotion while others absolutely cannot possibly have them, is what is ridiculous here. I'm not saying that they have the same emotions we do, I'm not saying your snake is going to love you or feel affection, but to say they have no emotion at all is ludicrous.

puppies have significantly higher levels of intelligence than a snake..

That is questionable. To be honest, I've plenty of snakes, particularly large adult female garter snakes, display more intelligence than your average dog. I often am able to "train" even a freshly caught wild snake, to trust me, to come to me, and even to know the difference between feeding time and a water change and it often only takes a day or two to accomplish that. Something that often takes much longer for your average dog to learn. Some of these female garter snakes I have are sharp as a tack. Can't even say that about all of my dogs.

[justme]

Millinex wrote: This is part of the reason I no longer keep snakes in such volume or interest as I used to, as a healthy snake isn't a very fun snake to watch or interact with. Now give me a half starved snake, and that animal will make an excellent display/captive critter with how much he'll move around his enclosure desperately trying to find food.

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If you no longer find enjoyment in watching and interacting with a "healthy" snake - thus losing interest, what brings you here to this forum? I feel this is a fair question to ask you.

[RedSidedSPR]

Millinex wrote: This is part of the reason I no longer keep snakes in such volume or interest as I used to, as a healthy snake isn't a very fun snake to watch or interact with. Now give me a half starved snake, and that animal will make an excellent display/captive critter with how much he'll move around his enclosure desperately trying to find food.

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If you no longer find enjoyment in watching and interacting with a "healthy" snake - thus losing interest, what brings you here to this forum? I feel this is a fair question to ask you.

Very fair question. If you don't like healthy snakes, you can't like snakes. Don't tell me you starve your snakes for your own enjoyment.

[RedSidedSPR]

Apparently that's not the only thing you fail to see, but then again, can't do much observing if your snakes are in tubs or racks.

Ouch. Nice one. Kidding. But I do agree with Richard. They do have emotions, and they have more intelligence than you might think. Not saying you don't know what you're talking about, and I respect your opinion, but...
And I do think Dogs are more intelligence than snakes. Maybe not an early-stage puppy, though. And yes they display fear and anger. Emotions. Now they don't feel LOVE, I'll give you that, but they obviously have emotions. Alot of stuff is INSTINCTS, but they DO have EMOTIONS. (arguing is a hobby for me, as with Richard, don't take it personal.)

[Sonya610]

Now they don't feel LOVE, I'll give you that, but they obviously have emotions. Alot of stuff is INSTINCTS, but they DO have EMOTIONS.

Two thoughts. First of all I am not sure they experience emotions like fear the way other animals (including humans do). It may be more of a preprogrammed automatic response but regardless it causes STRESS which is no doubt unpleasant for them. Likewise I do think they can experience pleasurable activities as well, chowing down on a good meal, lounging in the basking spot and enjoying the warmth, investigating the activities of the "giant" to see if they will offer food or provide some interesting interaction.

Is it "emotion" the way we sense it? I do not know but does that even matter? Pain/pleasure/stress/contentment is every bit as important, it defines the quality of life.

Regarding "instinct" vs. "emotion". Realize many (or possibly most) human emotions are based on instinct as well. The love for ones newborn baby (hormones surging), the feeling of protectiveness towards ones children, the bonding with sex partners (helpful in raising offspring successfully), the need to live in family groups and display forms of loyalty to associates. Those may seem like high and mighty "special" human attributes but many are based on INSTINCT and HORMONES and are designed to further our own survival and the survival of our offspring.

Studies have proven hormones (such as oxytocin) are responsible for much of the bonding that goes on among humans and other species. Introducing those hormones to animals that normally have low levels change their behavior instantly.

When comparing young puppies to snakes, keep in mind that snakes are expected to survive and have the basic mental faculties to do it right from the get go. Puppies, human babies, etc....are raised in family groups where the adults do most of the thinking for quite some time; they do not need to develop their intellect quite so rapidly, they can enjoy the luxury of being somewhat stupid as the family unit will protect them and provide for them.

[RedSidedSPR]

Two thoughts. First of all I am not sure they experience emotions like fear the way other animals (including humans do). It may be more of a preprogrammed automatic response but regardless it causes STRESS which is no doubt unpleasant for them. Likewise I do think they can experience pleasurable activities as well, chowing down on a good meal, lounging in the basking spot and enjoying the warmth, investigating the activities of the "giant" to see if they will offer food or provide some interesting interaction.

Is it "emotion" the way we sense it? I do not know but does that even matter? Pain/pleasure/stress/contentment is every bit as important, it defines the quality of life.

Regarding "instinct" vs. "emotion". Realize many (or possibly most) human emotions are based on instinct as well. The love for ones newborn baby (hormones surging), the feeling of protectiveness towards ones children, the bonding with sex partners (helpful in raising offspring successfully), the need to live in family groups and display forms of loyalty to associates. Those may seem like high and mighty "special" human attributes but many are based on INSTINCT and HORMONES and are designed to further our own survival and the survival of our offspring.

Studies have proven hormones (such as oxytocin) are responsible for much of the bonding that goes on among humans and other species. Introducing those hormones to animals that normally have low levels change their behavior instantly.

When comparing young puppies to snakes, keep in mind that snakes are expected to survive and have the basic mental faculties to do it right from the get go. Puppies, human babies, etc....are raised in family groups where the adults do most of the thinking for quite some time; they do not need to develop their intellect quite so rapidly, they can enjoy the luxury of being somewhat stupid as the family unit will protect them and provide for them.

I keep using the word: emotions, but what you said is what I (mostly) meant. Pleasure etc. are feeling and I've been saying that too.