5 gal. tank?

[ConcinusMan]

Who's to say what an "adequate" sized enclosure actually is? It's extremely common practice in the reptile hobby to keep young snakes, hell even adults, in bin systems, because in all honesty, snakes do not need a ton of room.

While this may be true, it never would hurt to have more room than what is adequate. Since we are not necessarily the best judge of what is adequate, then why push it to the smallest possible size?

I'm going to be pretty blunt about this, but garters do not "love" to climb and explore. Snakes do not have feelings toward you, you are a warm tree to them. When a snake is out and about, it isn't because it wants to explore and play, its because either it's hungry, or something in it's husbandry isn't proper, and it's looking for a more suitable place to meet its basic needs.

Can't say I agree with all of that even though you make some good points. I can honestly say I've observed the difference in attitude, appetite, and general mental well being of snakes, depending on the size of their enclosure, how it is setup. Big improvements in attitude, growth, appetite, etc. happen in well designed "roomy" enclosures as opposed to living in a box or minimal enclosure. The opposite is true for snakes that enjoy being confined and sedentary.

Snakes in the wild do not "come out and explore", they are a prey animal for numerous species, the risk of "exploring" simply isn't worth the chance of being eaten, they move when conditions aren't right, or they need food. Every other chance, the snake is hiding somewhere out of site, in some small area or under a rock, because it's dark and secure.

That's like saying that you would never leave the house, go outside, explore the outdoors, or get out to move around, just because you don't need to.

I keep nearly all of my snakes in tub systems, which I keep at certain humidity/temp depending on snake. I feed every 5-7 days depending on individual and they honestly have 0 reason to move around much. Even the 2 snakes that belong to my girlfriend, in 4x2 cages, sit in their hides 24/7 unless hungry or thirsty.

And that's the thing. Many snakes will tolerate and even thrive under certain range of conditions. They aren't set at a certain point. I prefer to give them a range of comfort zones they can choose at any given time. Sure, they'll live within the range, but that's not the same thing as giving them a choice.

If you want some display snakes, by all means, pick up a 20 gallon tank and have a blast decorating it and keeping them, but to be perfectly honest, you're decorating the tank for YOUR needs, for YOUR viewing pleasure, the snake could care less.

-Mike

I beg to differ. The snake does care. A shy snake can be made to be outgoing, a nervous, poor feeder can be made to eat well and be calm, all depending on how you setup their enclosure. I design the enclosures with their comfort in mind first. Ease of access and maintenance comes second, how it looks to me is last and quite frankly irrelevant if the above needs are not met first. Honestly, i've heard the same arguments from anyone who is trying to justify keeping their snakes living in highly confined spaces. There are certain species that are well suited for such living. Garter snakes are not among them.

Perhaps I need to go back and reread this thread but I felt the direction it was going "How small of a container can we stick an animal in and still have it live?'" not being the best of interest for the captive. When we take on the responsibility of caring for an animal, we also have a financial obligation as well to provide as much as we can for them. This was my main concern. Although overlooked, it almost inspired a caresheet.

Anyway, just expressing my opinions and what works for me as everyone else here on this forum does. I certainly wouldn't want to undermine your top knowledge in reptile husbandry or misguide anyone to raise their animals on a level you consider unfit and substandard.

Well said Karen. I'm not accusing or trying to say I'm right, you're wrong. Just voicing my concerns about using such an enclosure. Not saying it couldn't possibly work. I just don't think it's ideal and would be difficult. If you don't think so, then that is fine.

[Millinex]

Perhaps I need to go back and reread this thread but I felt the direction it was going "How small of a container can we stick an animal in and still have it live?'" not being the best of interest for the captive. When we take on the responsibility of caring for an animal, we also have a financial obligation as well to provide as much as we can for them. This was my main concern. Although overlooked, it almost inspired a caresheet.

Anyway, just expressing my opinions and what works for me as everyone else here on this forum does. I certainly wouldn't want to undermine your top knowledge in reptile husbandry or misguide anyone to raise their animals on a level you consider unfit and substandard.

I highly disagree that was the direction of the thread, although I haven't read it very well due to my lack of care. I only saw arguing about the ability to keep a baby in a 5 gallon tank. I don't know about you, but if I was a baby snake I'd be hiding 99% of the time, because even decent sized insects will take the chance to prey on me. As for "best interest in the captive" I really disagree with this. YOU like the nice made up terrarium, the snake could care less. In all my 15 years of snake keeping, I've seen snakes just as happy in bins as in fancy elaborate cages. I've seen perfect animals come out of bins, and I've seen animals poorly cared for in $400+ setups that "looked pretty" but didn't function properly for the snake.
I'm not saying my way is the end all or is absolutely correct; however, what I am saying is that it can be done, and can be done properly in small environments with no ill effects toward the snake itself.

While this may be true, it never would hurt to have more room than what is adequate. Since we are not necessarily the best judge of what is adequate, then why push it to the smallest possible size?

It doesn't hurt; no, however, it isn't needed either. The snake doesn't care either way. The reason we choose to build big huge cages to display our snakes is because WE want them, not the snake, the snake wants food, water, and proper temps/humidity, other than that it's content to lay under it's hide and relax, it's how they are programmed. Small size is easier to maintain those perfect temps/humidity etc for the individual animal, and easier for us to maintain as well. The snake will not suffer for a smaller cage, if anything, it may feel more secure in the smaller size.

Can't say I agree with all of that even though you make some good points. I can honestly say I've observed the difference in attitude, appetite, and general mental well being of snakes, depending on the size of their enclosure, how it is setup. Big improvements in attitude, growth, appetite, etc. happen in well designed "roomy" enclosures as opposed to living in a box or minimal enclosure. The opposite is true for snakes that enjoy being confined and sedentary.

I can honestly say I've never observed any difference in either. I've tried this with multiple species of snakes, including pine, bulls, gophers, garters, boas, species of pythons etc. I have seen absolutely no difference in growth of the animals, their attitudes, "mental well being" (how do we even judge what a snake "thinks"?). In fact, I'd go as far as to say I get a better feeding response from animals in a smaller container, and in some cases actually grow a bit faster because of it, especially as youngsters.
The only snake I can say really "used" her big display case was my 7' northern pine, she was always out and about, however, it's because she's hungry, she does the exact same thing in her bin, crawling around 24/7 because she's a bottomless pit, however in terms of temperment etc there is 0 difference between environments.

That's like saying that you would never leave the house, go outside, explore the outdoors, or get out to move around, just because you don't need to.

It really isn't. I'm not prey for other animals, so I am free to leave the house. If I had to worry about a T-Rex eating me every time I walked outside, you'd be sure I'd stay in my house unless I absolutely needed something. Again, you're being very anthropomorphic about these animals. They don't "explore the outdoors" because it goes against the natural instinct to survive, and they certainly just don't go around moving around because they just feel like it. Something in the environment, or lack of food, triggers the snake to need to relocate itself. As much as we may wish our snakes had thinking/problem solving skills like us, they simply don't.

And that's the thing. Many snakes will tolerate and even thrive under certain range of conditions. They aren't set at a certain point. I prefer to give them a range of comfort zones they can choose at any given time. Sure, they'll live within the range, but that's not the same thing as giving them a choice.

Sure, a certain range of temperatures and what not are widely accepted by snakes. Hell my bins will fluctuate here and there between a desired temperature range, however it's not out of the animals comfortable range. I don't let them get so dry they are desperately trying to escape and get moisture. Again, it's not bad to give the animal a choice of a large area to use, however, the snake certainly won't suffer for not allowing a broad temperature gradient etc. It all comes down to what you want to provide, and what you think the snake needs, not what the snake thinks it needs. If it was a case of snake thinking it needed XYZ than it would never be able to thrive in a tiny bin and grow and become a decent captive, it would die and the only snakes that would do well would be in 20 gallon tanks heavily planted with lots of hides/plants etc etc. However, clearly the snakes do well in both, so the snake itself doesn't care one way or another.

I beg to differ. The snake does care. A shy snake can be made to be outgoing, a nervous, poor feeder can be made to eat well and be calm, all depending on how you setup their enclosure. I design the enclosures with their comfort in mind first. Ease of access and maintenance comes second, how it looks to me is last and quite frankly irrelevant if the above needs are not met first. Honestly, i've heard the same arguments from anyone who is trying to justify keeping their snakes living in highly confined spaces. There are certain species that are well suited for such living. Garter snakes are not among them.

Do you know why the shy snake is shy? Or the nervous snake is nervous? It's simple, he's taken from his home and put into an environment with a giant who keeps him in a box and wants to poke him and handle him. In nature, his instincts are screaming "predator" and they want to avoid you. After a set amount of time, and handling, the snake no longer sees the giant as a predator, just a giant warm tree. You could do the same thing with nearly every animal currently kept in captivity short of some higher thinking mammals, monitors, and king cobras.

Do define "their comfort of mind" for me? I've never had my snakes tell me what that is, or share with me how they want an enclosure set up. They don't speak english nor write, the only way I can tell if a snake is doing well or not, is if its healthy weight, has some activity, and is able to reproduce. If those are all met, why is my snake so neglected for living in a small bin?

Well said Karen. I'm not accusing or trying to say I'm right, you're wrong. Just voicing my concerns about using such an enclosure. Not saying it couldn't possibly work. I just don't think it's ideal and would be difficult. If you don't think so, then that is fine.

I'm not saying I'm wrong or right, again, I have nothing against people who keep their animals in large enclosures, but at the same point they need to realize it's more for them than it is the snake itself. I also feel that the community who keeps snakes in large enclosures is overly harsh of those of us who keep them in smaller cages. We're told our small cages are "cruel and uncaring" when in all reality, my snakes in bins are just as healthy as yours in aquariums, it's a personal preference.

-Mike

[justme]

There is always room for improvement and as hobbyists, we owe it to the animals we keep, to continue the pursuit of good captive care. "Common Practice in the reptile hobby" does not mean one should stay complacent in our knowledge of animals and should also not limit the exploration of all areas which may also include one's own feelings of morality and ethicalness regarding captive care.

Thank you Richard for understanding the point I was trying to make and for sharing your views (you and I are on the same page). I don't look down on anyone here. In fact I feel grateful such a forum exists. The knowledge shared by each member is phenomenal!

[Millinex]

There is always room for improvement and as hobbyists, we owe it to the animals we keep, to continue the pursuit of good captive care. "Common Practice in the reptile hobby" does not mean one should stay complacent in our knowledge of animals and should also not limit the exploration of all areas which may also include one's own feelings of morality and ethicalness regarding captive care.

Thank you Richard for understanding the point I was trying to make and for sharing your views (you and I are on the same page). I don't look down on anyone here. In fact I feel grateful such a forum exists. The knowledge shared by each member is phenomenal!

Sure there is always room for improvement. However, snakes have been kept this way for many many years, with no ill effects. Hundreds of breeders use rack systems, and the animals are always healthy, and disease free. I can honestly say I have never met a breeder who keeps his animals in tubs with sick animals, starving, dieing etc. I can say however, I have met a ton of people who keep the animals in other forms of caging that are sick, dead, dieing, malnourished, RIs etc etc. Frankly it's easier to maintain the snakes health in a small environment, wouldn't it be better than for the animals sake? I fail to see how I'm staying "complacent in my knowledge" simply because I employ a proven method of raising healthy captive snakes. Again, I have not bashed the idea of keeping the animal in a larger cage, if that's what you want, more power to you, but don't look down on me for the fact I keep my animals differently.

It can work both ways, I recently got a pair of ball pythons in awful shape. They had a large 50g tank, plants, hides, water dish, bark, expensive lights and heat pads. Probably $300+ easily into the setup. I keep them now in a 3 foot long bin from walmart that cost me all of about $10, along with a single heat pad, a small pan of water, and paper towels. The entire setup was probably around $30 if even that, and the animals are far healthier after less than a week with me, than their entire lives in a large enclosure, all because I can properly regulate the conditions in the smaller bin.

-Mike

[Stefan-A]

However, snakes have been kept this way for many many years, with no ill effects.

The thing is, how do we know it's not a case of confirmation bias?

[Millinex]

The thing is, how do we know it's not a case of confirmation bias?

I can't really say it isn't. Although, if the snake is proven to live in these conditions and thrive for multiple years, reproduce, and die at an age older than the wild, but equally as long if not longer than animals kept in other enclosures, than how is it a confirmation bias? There have never been any studies saying snakes have any sort of rational thinking ability, and thus only operate on instinct alone. If you meet those basic needs who's to say the snake is suffering more in the smaller cage?

After watching all sorts of problems/malfunctions/bad husbandry that lead to the snakes accidental death; I'll stick with my uniform rack that has never failed me and given me awesome snakes as healthy, if not healthier than any custom enclosure snakes.

-Mike

[Stefan-A]

I can't really say it isn't. Although, if the snake is proven to live in these conditions and thrive for multiple years, reproduce, and die at an age older than the wild, but equally as long if not longer than animals kept in other enclosures, than how is it a confirmation bias?

Well, that snake may be an exception that's not acknowledged by the keeper as one. He may take that one case into consideration and completely overlook the 99 others that lived a significantly shorter life under the same conditions, compared to the other group.

That's something that people do frequently. People take one or a few cases that seem to confirm what they expect and completely ignore or downplay the cases that either don't confirm the theory, or outright disprove it. Examples would be to allow cases of mistreatment, or differences in the skills of the keepers in a comparison between two housing solutions.

Unless the risk of confirmation bias has been eliminated, nothing has really been proven.

People also suck at noticing statistically significant differences.

[Sonya610]

Small size is easier to maintain those perfect temps/humidity etc for the individual animal, and easier for us to maintain as well. The snake will not suffer for a smaller cage, if anything, it may feel more secure in the smaller size.

Do define "their comfort of mind" for me? I've never had my snakes tell me what that is, or share with me how they want an enclosure set up. They don't speak english nor write, the only way I can tell if a snake is doing well or not, is if its healthy weight, has some activity, and is able to reproduce. If those are all met, why is my snake so neglected for living in a small bin?

...Again, you're being very anthropomorphic about these animals. They don't "explore the outdoors" because it goes against the natural instinct to survive, and they certainly just don't go around moving around because they just feel like it. Something in the environment, or lack of food, triggers the snake to need to relocate itself. As much as we may wish our snakes had thinking/problem solving skills like us, they simply don't.

I'm not saying I'm wrong or right, again, I have nothing against people who keep their animals in large enclosures, but at the same point they need to realize it's more for them than it is the snake itself. I also feel that the community who keeps snakes in large enclosures is overly harsh of those of us who keep them in smaller cages. We're told our small cages are "cruel and uncaring" when in all reality, my snakes in bins are just as healthy as yours in aquariums, it's a personal preference.

Ummmm...so you admit that keeping reptiles in small cheap containers is EASIER for YOU and then you go on to accuse those that choose larger naturalistic environments as doing "all for themself and not the animal".

Hmmmm...seems like a bit of a contradiction eh? Also "eating, being somewhat active, and reproducing" are not proof of much. Humans can and do survive in small prison cells for decades, an alien could peer down and say "now see, he eats everyday and breeds if given the chance therefore he must be content in that environment".

Fact is in nature Garters are fairly busy little guys, whether for food or heat or whatever. In a captive environment they are still hard wired to want some activity, and their nature does not change simply because they don't need to hunt for food constantly.

Humans have very LITTLE understanding of how most other species interpret their world. To think we understand them and their perception is quite ignorant and arrogant on our part. Keep in mind a few decades ago doctors "knew" that newborn human infants could NOT feel pain, they would perform major surgery on those infants and they were certain the cries and thrashing were involuntary responses that had NOTHING to do with actually suffering because the infants were physically incapable of experiencing real pain.

Twas proven! And we know a heck of a lot more regarding human infants than we do regarding how other species perceive their worlds.

Basic understanding of animal psychology alone proves that the snake has no feelings, and has no use for them.

We have NO real understanding regarding the psychology of most animals! Even the psychology of canines is hotly debated. How can anyone even pretend to understand their psychology when you yourself say they can't tell you what they are thinking?