5 gal. tank?

[infernalis]

By definition anger and fear are emotions. reptiles clearly display both.

[justme]

Millinex wrote: This is part of the reason I no longer keep snakes in such volume or interest as I used to, as a healthy snake isn't a very fun snake to watch or interact with. Now give me a half starved snake, and that animal will make an excellent display/captive critter with how much he'll move around his enclosure desperately trying to find food.

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If you no longer find enjoyment in watching and interacting with a "healthy" snake - thus losing interest, what brings you here to this forum? I feel this is a fair question to ask you.

[RedSidedSPR]

Apparently that's not the only thing you fail to see, but then again, can't do much observing if your snakes are in tubs or racks.

Ouch. Nice one. Kidding. But I do agree with Richard. They do have emotions, and they have more intelligence than you might think. Not saying you don't know what you're talking about, and I respect your opinion, but...
And I do think Dogs are more intelligence than snakes. Maybe not an early-stage puppy, though. And yes they display fear and anger. Emotions. Now they don't feel LOVE, I'll give you that, but they obviously have emotions. Alot of stuff is INSTINCTS, but they DO have EMOTIONS. (arguing is a hobby for me, as with Richard, don't take it personal.)

[RedSidedSPR]

Millinex wrote: This is part of the reason I no longer keep snakes in such volume or interest as I used to, as a healthy snake isn't a very fun snake to watch or interact with. Now give me a half starved snake, and that animal will make an excellent display/captive critter with how much he'll move around his enclosure desperately trying to find food.

------------

If you no longer find enjoyment in watching and interacting with a "healthy" snake - thus losing interest, what brings you here to this forum? I feel this is a fair question to ask you.

Very fair question. If you don't like healthy snakes, you can't like snakes. Don't tell me you starve your snakes for your own enjoyment.

[infernalis]

One of the reasons so many of us here like Garter Snakes is their dynamic nature. These snakes will constantly peer out into the room, are frequently on the move providing a rather dynamic visual display.

Larger snakes tend to feed and hide, feed and hide. that's about it.

These little guys have ADHD real bad and don't seem to adhere to the "rules"

[Millinex]

Wow. I'm starting to think this thread was a bad idea Kidding. I'm actually enjoying this. But I'll have to say, I'm on Richard/Chantles, side. I believe they do need exercise and all that. They are not always inactive even if they just ate. I've had my garter eat 12 fish and a nightcrawler, nice and fat, and then go climb on the big tree thing in his 20gal tank. Obviously not hungry. I also think that once they've been in captivity (or in most cases born in captivity) they will lose their fear of being prey. I've seen snakes come up to the glass, begging to be picked up. While that will very likely means he wants food (even if he's not really hungry), he isn't worrying about being eaten. He likes being out of his cage, but not because of any discomfort. Ask Steve. He took his snake to the vet in his coat hood. They usually have a reason to come out, like you say, but they do need exercise, and they do explore. He isn't climbing that tree looking for pinkies. And he isn't climbing up your arm worrying about being eaten. I think keeping a little snake in a little tank is okay, but I think keeping him in a big tank is better. If you have the choice, for the snakes sake, get the bigger. But if it's a temporary quarantine or other reason, he'll be fine in a small tank. Just my opinion.

Have you ever thought that the reason it was on top of the said plant after eating, was it was a better temperature gradient for digesting its meal? No, clearly the snake wasn't adjusting itself for proper temps to digest, it was clearly out playing and wanting to interact. Also, the snake isn't "begging" to be picked up, the temperatures etc in his cage are not correct for his immediate needs and he wants out, to find somewhere that is correct.
They do not need exercise, they get enough of that when eating/drinking or moving to a new area of the enclosure for proper temps, and he certainly isn't exploring because it seems like a fun idea. Again, it would would be a genetic impossibility, as these animals have no real defense from predators, and would be wiped out.

Apparently that's not the only thing you fail to see, but then again, can't do much observing if your snakes are in tubs or racks.

Again, because perhaps you where too dense to read the fact I've stated multiple times that I have kept snakes in both situations. I housed 3 garters in a 155 5x2.5x3 cage for over a year before I moved them. So I suggest learning some basic reading before trying to get hostile with me, because you won't go far.

You sound so sure. I am sure they do have some basic emotions. Perhaps not as complex, and definitely not expressed in a familiar way, but they are there. To assume certain animals have emotion while others absolutely cannot possibly have them, is what is ridiculous here. I'm not saying that they have the same emotions we do, I'm not saying your snake is going to love you or feel affection, but to say they have no emotion at all is ludicrous.

Emotions where developed for social animals, animals with highly developed brains in which to communicate and work as a team, to look after each other. I have never witnessed anything of the sort with snakes. Snakes do not problem solve, work as a team, care for each other, etc. Emotion in and of itself would have no place in a solitary animal run by instinct.

That is questionable. To be honest, I've plenty of snakes, particularly large adult female garter snakes, display more intelligence than your average dog. I often am able to "train" even a freshly caught wild snake, to trust me, to come to me, and even to know the difference between feeding time and a water change and it often only takes a day or two to accomplish that. Something that often takes much longer for your average dog to learn. Some of these female garter snakes I have are sharp as a tack. Can't even say that about all of my dogs.

I'd really love to see some sort of video proof of a snake having some sort of higher thinking and brain power. I hate to say it but recognizing the water dish as water is not exactly higher thinking. Neither is "he knows when it's food time". Why is this you ask? In nature they know to associate certain things with certain results, in captivity it really is absolutely no different. When you open the door, you change the atmosphere, wind, temps, humidity etc and the snake can tell these things. At some point they realize that this = food. That doesn't mean he's thought about it, problem solved, and came to a conclusion.

By definition anger and fear are emotions. reptiles clearly display both.

Anger? Please do define "anger" in a reptile? All reactions including a snake puffing/hissing/biting/musking are programmed self protection methods that are followed by instinct. If you want to use the term fear for it, go ahead, however I believe the snake is already programmed to do certain things in response to certain stimuli.

If you no longer find enjoyment in watching and interacting with a "healthy" snake - thus losing interest, what brings you here to this forum? I feel this is a fair question to ask you.

I don't, because there is no real interaction between a snake and a person, the snake doesn't have the desire to be with me, etc. I'm here on this forum because I keep snakes, I breed and sell multiple species including garters. I used to keep several of them, and have nothing against them.

Very fair question. If you don't like healthy snakes, you can't like snakes. Don't tell me you starve your snakes for your own enjoyment.

No, I feed my snakes every 5-7 days in appropriate size meals. However, I keep them in tubs/bins and not on display, the displays are all of my monitors, which I've found more interesting. Also, it's not a matter of not liking snakes, or liking healthy snakes. I don't enjoy the keeping of snakes on the same level as some people. I love and appreciate reptiles, I enjoy catching snakes and rearing them in my home. However, over 15 years I've observed how a healthy snake behaves, and they just don't make awesome display animals that are tons of fun for me. Some people really enjoy snakes, some of us like them, and keep them, but certainly aren't dedicating our lives to them or proposing they have any human characteristics.

One of the reasons so many of us here like Garter Snakes is their dynamic nature. These snakes will constantly peer out into the room, are frequently on the move providing a rather dynamic visual display.

Larger snakes tend to feed and hide, feed and hide. that's about it.

These little guys have ADHD real bad and don't seem to adhere to the "rules"

You like garter snakes because they are diurnal foragers. Not because they are dynamic. They are peering out in the middle of the day to see if it's a safe time to search for food, if safe, they will actively hunt. Most large snakes- boas/pythons etc, are nocturnal, and have no reason to be out and about, also their thicker/heavier bodies expend much more energy so "cruising around" isn't exactly a viable option for them.

-Mike

[RedSidedSPR]

Have you ever thought that the reason it was on top of the said plant after eating, was it was a better temperature gradient for digesting its meal? No, clearly the snake wasn't adjusting itself for proper temps to digest, it was clearly out playing and wanting to interact. Also, the snake isn't "begging" to be picked up, the temperatures etc in his cage are not correct for his immediate needs and he wants out, to find somewhere that is correct.
They do not need exercise, they get enough of that when eating/drinking or moving to a new area of the enclosure for proper temps, and he certainly isn't exploring because it seems like a fun idea. Again, it would would be a genetic impossibility, as these animals have no real defense from predators, and would be wiped out.

The left side of his tank is room temperature. The right is heated. The tree is on the LEFT side. If he is perfectly content, (which he usually is) why would he be wanting out if the left side is the same as outside?
Another thing I'll throw at you and hope you have a good answer, is:
When I put new objects in his tank, he goes and checks them out. One time I was trying to put him in a separate container while I cleaned his cage, (this was when he still feared me recently after I caught him) and I didn't want to pick him up. So I put the container in the cage in front of his hide, KNOWING his CURIOSITY, would get the better of him, and it did. He immediately went into the container checking it out.

How does a garter stay fit if he never moves?

I'd really love to see some sort of video proof of a snake having some sort of higher thinking and brain power. I hate to say it but recognizing the water dish as water is not exactly higher thinking. Neither is "he knows when it's food time". Why is this you ask? In nature they know to associate certain things with certain results, in captivity it really is absolutely no different. When you open the door, you change the atmosphere, wind, temps, humidity etc and the snake can tell these things. At some point they realize that this = food. That doesn't mean he's thought about it, problem solved, and came to a conclusion.

some of that is true, but that dosn't prove anything against them having feelings.

Anger? Please do define "anger" in a reptile? All reactions including a snake puffing/hissing/biting/musking are programmed self protection methods that are followed by instinct. If you want to use the term fear for it, go ahead, however I believe the snake is already programmed to do certain things in response to certain stimuli.

I'll agree with you there, it's more self-defense and fear than anger, but that dosn't prove anything against them having other emotions. Very few animals feel anger, even the extremely intelligent ones.

No, I feed my snakes every 5-7 days in appropriate size meals. However, I keep them in tubs/bins and not on display, the displays are all of my monitors, which I've found more interesting. Also, it's not a matter of not liking snakes, or liking healthy snakes. I don't enjoy the keeping of snakes on the same level as some people. I love and appreciate reptiles, I enjoy catching snakes and rearing them in my home. However, over 15 years I've observed how a healthy snake behaves, and they just don't make awesome display animals that are tons of fun for me. Some people really enjoy snakes, some of us like them, and keep them, but certainly aren't dedicating our lives to them or proposing they have any human characteristics.

How can you enjoy them moving around when they do, if they're in tubs? If they're in plastic container (do they even have light?), why would they move around? There is nothing there but bedding, a hide, and a water bowl. But if you put lots of objects in his tank he'll be exploring a lot more. Try it.

You like garter snakes because they are diurnal foragers. Not because they are dynamic. They are peering out in the middle of the day to see if it's a safe time to search for food, if safe, they will actively hunt. Most large snakes- boas/pythons etc, are nocturnal, and have no reason to be out and about, also their thicker/heavier bodies expend much more energy so "cruising around" isn't exactly a viable option for them.

Corn snakes are diurnal. But they don't move around (explore) half as much as garters. They sit there in their hide waiting until you hand them food. Often the same size as garters. (big female ones at least). But garters are a lot more active. My snake was sitting on my bed the other day. I set my iPod a foot away from him and went and got my headphones. I came back 15seconds later and he was checking out my iPod. Not temperature difference, no food involved, nothing but the need to check out that random object. Curiosity. Is that an emotion? Cause they have it. They are VERY curious.

[Millinex]

The left side of his tank is room temperature. The right is heated. The tree is on the LEFT side. If he is perfectly content, (which he usually is) why would he be wanting out if the left side is the same as outside?

Simple, the snakes internal thermometer is telling it that a certain area/humidity/temp is better at the time. It wasn't him having fun exploring it was his body regulating.

Another thing I'll throw at you and hope you have a good answer, is:
When I put new objects in his tank, he goes and checks them out. One time I was trying to put him in a separate container while I cleaned his cage, (this was when he still feared me recently after I caught him) and I didn't want to pick him up. So I put the container in the cage in front of his hide, KNOWING his CURIOSITY, would get the better of him, and it did. He immediately went into the container checking it out.

If it was still while has flighty, and jumpy, I would come to the conclusion you placed the container over his only exit. A lot of times when you do this, the animal goes into a flight response, in an attempt to get out. You've just basically sealed him in his hide, he doesn't want to be stuck there without food/water/etc and will attempt to flee and leave the area. I've noticed this a lot with snakes actually, even using a solid piece of black cloth will a lot of times, trigger the animal to go right through it trying to get out.

How does a garter stay fit if he never moves?

Snakes are designed for minimal effort, for one, garters are not amazingly strong in terms of comparison to other snakes. Eating, digesting, moving for water, to lay on various parts of the tub or under the substrate are all more than enough to maintain his muscle. Also, I notice around day 4-6 the snakes become more active, because they have finished digesting the last meal, and the next one is imminent.

some of that is true, but that dosn't prove anything against them having feelings.

Basic understanding of animal psychology alone proves that the snake has no feelings, and has no use for them.

I'll agree with you there, it's more self-defense and fear than anger, but that dosn't prove anything against them having other emotions. Very few animals feel anger, even the extremely intelligent ones.

I can safely say the only animals I really see "anger" in, are primates, I haven't heard or seen it in any ungulates, herps, or carnivores.

How can you enjoy them moving around when they do, if they're in tubs? If they're in plastic container (do they even have light?), why would they move around? There is nothing there but bedding, a hide, and a water bowl. But if you put lots of objects in his tank he'll be exploring a lot more. Try it.

I don't enjoy them moving in the tub, that's why they are in the tub... My girlfriend went and purchased the very expensive showcase cages for her 3 snakes. I can honestly say, 2/3 snakes in the enclosures are 100% boring animals to watch, they do not move, interact, anything, they act like typical healthy snakes, hiding. The last snake was my 7 foot northern pine snake. She was out roaming with some frequency, because of how we fed her, when we switched to feeding jumbo rats every 5-7 days, she became much more complacent and would also just sit in the back of the cage, curled up, not moving. I can assure you I've "tried it" with multiple species, including boas, pythons, garters, corns, bulls, pines, and even a rattlesnake. They all will react in the same basic fashion. The only snake I will give some form of credit to, in terms of "intelligence" based on my personal experiences with the animal- is the king cobra.

Corn snakes are diurnal. But they don't move around (explore) half as much as garters. They sit there in their hide waiting until you hand them food. Often the same size as garters. (big female ones at least). But garters are a lot more active. My snake was sitting on my bed the other day. I set my iPod a foot away from him and went and got my headphones. I came back 15seconds later and he was checking out my iPod. Not temperature difference, no food involved, nothing but the need to check out that random object. Curiosity. Is that an emotion? Cause they have it. They are VERY curious.

I'd really debate that whole thought. From most of my field observations and captive observations, in both a tub/aquarium setting corns are FAR more active at night, because their most common prey (mice) are also far more active at night.
As for your ipod, I'd be more inclined to say the snake was interested in the fact its electronic. I've seen many many animals either gravitate straight towards or straight away from electromagnetic currents caused by our various gadgets. My snakes will right up to my cellphone to, it's a sense animals pick up on well, that we as humans do not.

[Stefan-A]

I have a hard time believing that 1/100 snakes are kept successfully in a rack system.

That's a misrepresentation of what I was saying. 1/100 was an example of an extreme, but not impossible scenario. It could just as well have been 99/100 and it would still apply.

If someone has gone to the effort of having a rack system it's generally because they have a large number or are breeding. In either case the owner knows enough about the animal to understand basic husbandry and follow through on its basic needs.

Not relevant to what I was commenting on. Also, it has no effect on the enclosure's properties, which was the subject. Skill can compensate for deficient solutions and make them seem "as good as, or better than" the alternative solution. So the skill is irrelevant to the discussion.

The idea that the snake would die simply because it doesn't have a large cage with branches logs and rocks is simply ******** if I'm going to be honest.

Not what I was talking about.

In terms of dismissing other cases, I'm not at all.

I'm not saying you are, I'm saying that it can't be ruled out in cases like this. It's a simple fact that it is something that people do without realizing it. The implication is of course that when it hasn't been properly investigated, all statements on the topic might as well start with the abbreviation "IMO".

I've seen baby snakes in racks die because they don't eat, but then again, baby snakes die all the time, some never start to eat regardless of conditions.

I agree. I'm sure you're not suggesting that there can be no difference in how frequently it happens under different conditions.

However, look at the people who keep snakes in tubs/racks,

No, don't look at the people. Those are variables that need to be eliminated if you're going to make a comparison between housing solutions.

they do so because they have the large number and understand the snake.

I agree with the first part, but the second does not follow. It may be the case, but I've seen enough nitwits with large quantities of snakes, often but not always housed in racks, to understand that the two are not necessarily connected.

Look at how many ****** middle class individuals go out and purchase a fancy cage, fancy lights, heat pad, this and that,

Or 50 snakes and a rack. That's another reason to not take the keeper into consideration when you compare enclosures.

Give 2 super experienced keepers 10 baby garter snakes, one with racks, one with large terrariums/enclosures,

I haven't done the calculations of how many individuals would be needed in experiments like this, but I'm pretty sure 10 isn't nearly enough. An experiment wouldn't have much validity with a sample size that small. You might need to add a zero or two to detect a statistically significant difference.

in both situations the snakes will end up about the same, because the factors determining the snakes healthiness are simple: food, water, heat, humidity, light. Nothing else matters or will define how well the snake grows or lives.

That would be a hypothesis that a person would set out to disprove by setting up the experiment and tossing in a variable, such as the enclosure type.

If you want to argue a puppy kept in a house with toys will develop better than a puppy in a cage sure, I'm all for that, however, puppies have significantly higher levels of intelligence than a snake.

Intelligence isn't necessarily key.

And just to make my position clear here: My problem is not with racks. I'm perfectly open to the possibility that they may be worse than, as good as, or better than other enclosures. But I want it shown and I will wipe my *** on anecdotes, guesses and beliefs in regards to that question.

[drache]

I am not sufficiently invested in the pros and cons of rack systems to carry on in this discussion, but there is one thing you said, Mike, that I wish to address

While your vet may say that, he also needs to take into account that the majority of pets he sees, the animals the statistic comes from, are dogs, cats, rodents, horses.

My vet is a herp vet who sees reptiles as a big part of his practice, and while he likely does see more mammals, just because that's what most people keep, he treats reptiles for herp and turtle rescues, as well as those of the Wildlife Conservation Society - that is the Bronx Zoo. He probably sees more reptiles than your average herp vet, and I would think that majority of them are captive. When he talked about the issue, it was in regards to reptiles.