5 gal. tank?

[Millinex]

Imo, it's not healthy if a snake just lays there. They need exercise. The snakes I have get taken out every couple days to be put in a warm bath, in the grass if its warm and dry outside or on the floor so they can move. I don't know how people can like snakes that lay there like they're dead all day unless they're hungry or thirsty. That's like humans nowadays and look at how big people are getting.

Again, you're comparing the snake to humans on an extreme level. It is 100% against the snakes instincts to want to "exercise and explore". If you where a baby snake in the wild, who ventured out for anything other than absolute necessities, you would be a defective snake with bad genes, and some random critter would surely eat you. The snake does not "lay around" and get fat like humans, the snake lays around because it's safe in it's environment, and going out and "exploring" in it's natural setting would lead to it getting preyed upon.

Sometimes it amazes me how much people want to compare 2 completely different species with completely different needs. One of which has a highly complex brain to one that has an extremely basic and primitive brain. If you where comparing elephants or dolphins to humans in terms of "needing" things, than I could see your point, however a snake? Not a chance.

This is part of the reason I no longer keep snakes in such volume or interest as I used to, as a healthy snake isn't a very fun snake to watch or interact with. Now give me a half starved snake, and that animal will make an excellent display/captive critter with how much he'll move around his enclosure desperately trying to find food. My snakes I have now are strictly for the commercial pet industry (with the exception of my girlfriends few snakes).

[Stefan-A]

I can't really say it isn't. Although, if the snake is proven to live in these conditions and thrive for multiple years, reproduce, and die at an age older than the wild, but equally as long if not longer than animals kept in other enclosures, than how is it a confirmation bias?

Well, that snake may be an exception that's not acknowledged by the keeper as one. He may take that one case into consideration and completely overlook the 99 others that lived a significantly shorter life under the same conditions, compared to the other group.

That's something that people do frequently. People take one or a few cases that seem to confirm what they expect and completely ignore or downplay the cases that either don't confirm the theory, or outright disprove it. Examples would be to allow cases of mistreatment, or differences in the skills of the keepers in a comparison between two housing solutions.

Unless the risk of confirmation bias has been eliminated, nothing has really been proven.

People also suck at noticing statistically significant differences.

[kibakiba]

I'm not comparing them to humans exactly. An opinion is an opinion. Snakes can get fat, and thus need exercise. Its the same with all animals if you feed them and feed them and they never move, eventually they become a fat, boring lump. I got into garters because they are more active, they move and from my experience they need to move. I don't really care what your experience is with them. My garters move around a lot. It seems cruel to put them in a tiny container and say that they're happy.
My snakes are well fed, they move a lot after eating and they have muscles, what happens when something doesn't use it's muscles? They disappear. They have to work their muscles if they're to stay strong.

Again, this is my opinion. If you don't like it, then too bad. My snakes are 100% healthy in their large, spacious and decorated tanks.

[Millinex]

Well, that snake may be an exception that's not acknowledged by the keeper as one. He may take that one case into consideration and completely overlook the 99 others that lived a significantly shorter life under the same conditions, compared to the other group.

That's something that people do frequently. People take one or a few cases that seem to confirm what they expect and completely ignore or downplay the cases that either don't confirm the theory, or outright disprove it. Examples would be to allow cases of mistreatment, or differences in the skills of the keepers in a comparison between two housing solutions.

Unless the risk of confirmation bias has been eliminated, nothing has really been proven.

People also suck at noticing statistically significant differences.

I have a hard time believing that 1/100 snakes are kept successfully in a rack system. If someone has gone to the effort of having a rack system it's generally because they have a large number or are breeding. In either case the owner knows enough about the animal to understand basic husbandry and follow through on its basic needs. The idea that the snake would die simply because it doesn't have a large cage with branches logs and rocks is simply ******** if I'm going to be honest.

I also fail to see how branches/rocks/a large cage would significantly increase a snakes lifespan, since they ARE NOT essential to the snakes life. It simply goes against the basic understanding of the snake itself to claim it lives a shorter life based upon those factors, because the snake does not "think". In terms of dismissing other cases, I'm not at all. I've seen baby snakes in racks die because they don't eat, but then again, baby snakes die all the time, some never start to eat regardless of conditions. However, look at the people who keep snakes in tubs/racks, they do so because they have the large number and understand the snake. Look at how many ****** middle class individuals go out and purchase a fancy cage, fancy lights, heat pad, this and that, but FAIL to meet the snakes basic needs? I'm not saying anyone here is ********, but it's for examples sake.

Give 2 super experienced keepers 10 baby garter snakes, one with racks, one with large terrariums/enclosures, in both situations the snakes will end up about the same, because the factors determining the snakes healthiness are simple: food, water, heat, humidity, light. Nothing else matters or will define how well the snake grows or lives. If you want to argue a puppy kept in a house with toys will develop better than a puppy in a cage sure, I'm all for that, however, puppies have significantly higher levels of intelligence than a snake.

I'm not comparing them to humans exactly. An opinion is an opinion. Snakes can get fat, and thus need exercise. Its the same with all animals if you feed them and feed them and they never move, eventually they become a fat, boring lump. I got into garters because they are more active, they move and from my experience they need to move. I don't really care what your experience is with them. My garters move around a lot. It seems cruel to put them in a tiny container and say that they're happy.
My snakes are well fed, they move a lot after eating and they have muscles, what happens when something doesn't use it's muscles? They disappear. They have to work their muscles if they're to stay strong.

Again, this is my opinion. If you don't like it, then too bad. My snakes are 100% healthy in their large, spacious and decorated tanks.

Snakes get fat because of OWNERS. Again, take a look at the way the snake reacts in nature, they are opportunistic feeders. If they get a chance to eat, and eat a lot of it, they will, because they don't know when the next meal will be. That's what makes snakes so fascinating, the ability to eat a huge meal, then go months without food. Stick the snake in a tiny enclosure and feed it over and over, the snake will rarely turn down food, of course it will be fat, its instincts are to eat because who knows when next meal is! Any snake keeper who offers as much food as the snake can eat daily is just asking for health problems, and probably knows absolutely nothing in regards to reptile husbandry in general.

Again, the snake is moving in your enclosure because there is some XYZ requirement that is not being met by YOU the provider. We use the same type of saying in the varanid keeping group: if your monitor is at the front of its cage, constantly trying to get out, it doesn't want to play, it's not being taken care of right and needs its husbandry re-evaluated.

Also, I never claimed my snake was "happy" in his small cage. I'm stating snakes DO NOT HAVE EMOTION. The snake is not "happy" the snake does not have feelings, emotion, love, care, any of that. All of those features belong to social mammals, not solitary reptiles. The snakes needs are being met, and it is content on living its natural life hiding in its safe box until it's next meal. Also in terms of "not working muscles" I have yet to see this in any tub-raised individuals. I can safely say you can take my tub raised bull snake, or pine snake, up against most constrictors and they'll give them a run for their money, because despite sitting in a tub almost all their lives, except for educational shows, they have a tremendous amount of power.

I'm not trying to be harsh, however the idea that a snake is "happy" is both ridiculous and stupid.

[justme]

Chantel, I too believe that garters should have enough room to stretch out.

There is activeness, alertness and then there is pacing and nose-rubbing. A significant difference between the two!

This thread has seriously inspired me to bring out the whisky (sadly the most profound statement I've made all day). Folks, I wish we could all have a drink together and lighten up. Good grief!!! ;-)

[Millinex]

Chantel, I too believe that garters should have enough room to stretch out.

There is activeness, alertness and then there is pacing and nose-rubbing. A significant difference between the two!

This thread has seriously inspired me to bring out the whisky (sadly the most profound statement I've made all day). Folks, I wish we could all have a drink together and lighten up. Good grief!!! ;-)

I'm very relaxed; however, if there is one thing that really annoys the hell out of me, it's the idea that a snake has feelings, is happy, or "loves". These things simply aren't true. I have nothing against people who want to keep their snakes in large cages, hell my 3 garters had a 155 gallon back when they where my display animals, and pets. However, the idea that a snake can't be perfectly healthy in a rack system is probably hands down the stupidest things I have ever heard.

[drache]

while I am not in principle opposed to rack systems, I note that I often think of them as appropriate for species I have no experience with, and no desire to keep
I do think they are a great convenience for people who keep large amounts of animals, and they help to provide sanitary conditions in settings where that is needed
however - the argument that snakes don't have the urge to move unless something prompts them is just as anthropomorphic as the claim that they need branches - and perhaps not entirely accidental
according to my vet, obesity is in fact the #1 underlying cause in the majority of disorders affecting captive animals
isn't that because we expect them to live like us? (in cubicles or on a couch, with no exercise or appropriate diet, just as long as there is climate control)
we do all thrive in this setting too, don't we?
this has nothing to do with emotional states - it's basic physiology
in the wild, exercise is a built-in factor of feeding, and on a purely physiological level muscle tone is not entirely irrelevant to metabolism
and - "feelings" aside - there is a case to be made for the option to self-regulate
I don't think it kills a snake to be in a tub, and I don't know that they "miss" stimulation or exercise, and I do have one snake that might as well be housed in a tub
they do become more interesting when given the opportunity to move around; even my much more sedentary kings and hogs do more than lie around between meals

[Millinex]

while I am not in principle opposed to rack systems, I note that I often think of them as appropriate for species I have no experience with, and no desire to keep
I do think they are a great convenience for people who keep large amounts of animals, and they help to provide sanitary conditions in settings where that is needed
however - the argument that snakes don't have the urge to move unless something prompts them is just as anthropomorphic as the claim that they need branches - and perhaps not entirely accidental
according to my vet, obesity is in fact the #1 underlying cause in the majority of disorders affecting captive animals
isn't that because we expect them to live like us? (in cubicles or on a couch, with no exercise or appropriate diet, just as long as there is climate control)
we do all thrive in this setting too, don't we?
this has nothing to do with emotional states - it's basic physiology
in the wild, exercise is a built-in factor of feeding, and on a purely physiological level muscle tone is not entirely irrelevant to metabolism
and - "feelings" aside - there is a case to be made for the option to self-regulate
I don't think it kills a snake to be in a tub, and I don't know that they "miss" stimulation or exercise, and I do have one snake that might as well be housed in a tub
they do become more interesting when given the opportunity to move around; even my much more sedentary kings and hogs do more than lie around between meals

While your vet may say that, he also needs to take into account that the majority of pets he sees, the animals the statistic comes from, are dogs, cats, rodents, horses. Again social animals. While rodents are also prey animals they also have much more complex brains than a snake, which promotes things like problem solving and doing other "things" rather than just hiding.

I fail to see how understanding how a snake works is anthropomorphic? I don't live in a small cubicle or box, no healthy human does. This is because of the simple fact we are a higher thinking being, we require certain stimuli other than the basic needs of life in order to thrive. A healthy human needs mental as well as physical exercise daily, just as primates in a zoo are required to have enrichment items, because they are essential to a healthy animal.

Yes, I agree that exercise and food go hand in hand, the process of finding and catching food; however, from what I've seen and studied, snakes are some of the most efficient predators on earth, and their bodies don't exactly behave in the same way that other animals do. I really don't feel it's acceptable to compare a snake to the majority of the animals that we keep in the pet trade.

Observe your king/hogs in the enclosure. Take a look at what they are doing and study it closely, learn how to read the body language of the snake and what exactly it's after. The funny part is, as I was typing this last night my girlfriends ball python decided to slither out of his hide. Where did he go? He ended up wedging himself up along the upper lip of the showcase cage where he felt more secure, he spent all of about 5 minutes "out" and was quickly back into "hide" mode. He isn't afraid of humans, her cats, anything, however his instincts will tell him to spend his time hiding from possible danger.

-Mike

[RedSidedSPR]

Wow. I'm starting to think this thread was a bad idea Kidding. I'm actually enjoying this. But I'll have to say, I'm on Richard/Chantles, side. I believe they do need exercise and all that. They are not always inactive even if they just ate. I've had my garter eat 12 fish and a nightcrawler, nice and fat, and then go climb on the big tree thing in his 20gal tank. Obviously not hungry. I also think that once they've been in captivity (or in most cases born in captivity) they will lose their fear of being prey. I've seen snakes come up to the glass, begging to be picked up. While that will very likely means he wants food (even if he's not really hungry), he isn't worrying about being eaten. He likes being out of his cage, but not because of any discomfort. Ask Steve. He took his snake to the vet in his coat hood. They usually have a reason to come out, like you say, but they do need exercise, and they do explore. He isn't climbing that tree looking for pinkies. And he isn't climbing up your arm worrying about being eaten. I think keeping a little snake in a little tank is okay, but I think keeping him in a big tank is better. If you have the choice, for the snakes sake, get the bigger. But if it's a temporary quarantine or other reason, he'll be fine in a small tank. Just my opinion.

[ConcinusMan]

I also fail to see how branches/rocks/a large cage would significantly increase a snakes lifespan, since they ARE NOT essential to the snakes life.

Apparently that's not the only thing you fail to see, but then again, can't do much observing if your snakes are in tubs or racks.

Also, I never claimed my snake was "happy" in his small cage. I'm stating snakes DO NOT HAVE EMOTION.
I'm not trying to be harsh, however the idea that a snake is "happy" is both ridiculous and stupid.

You sound so sure. I am sure they do have some basic emotions. Perhaps not as complex, and definitely not expressed in a familiar way, but they are there. To assume that certain animals have emotion while others absolutely cannot possibly have them, is what is ridiculous here. I'm not saying that they have the same emotions we do, I'm not saying your snake is going to love you or feel affection, but to say they have no emotion at all is ludicrous.

puppies have significantly higher levels of intelligence than a snake..

That is questionable. To be honest, I've plenty of snakes, particularly large adult female garter snakes, display more intelligence than your average dog. I often am able to "train" even a freshly caught wild snake, to trust me, to come to me, and even to know the difference between feeding time and a water change and it often only takes a day or two to accomplish that. Something that often takes much longer for your average dog to learn. Some of these female garter snakes I have are sharp as a tack. Can't even say that about all of my dogs.