5 gal. tank?

[Millinex]

I've been out for a bit, sadly I have a real life that takes up way too much time sometimes. I've spent a lot of time looking for places to live, caring for some new arrivals, getting cages set up/planning new ones and working on breeding Varanus indicus (which I believe hasn't been done or documented?) Anyway I'll go ahead and respond to a few posts real quick. If people have further questions feel free to post them and I'll respond again probably later tonight.

Ummmm...so you admit that keeping reptiles in small cheap containers is EASIER for YOU and then you go on to accuse those that choose larger naturalistic environments as doing "all for themself and not the animal".

It is easier for me, this is extremely true. However, I'm saying the well decorated tank is done because the owner wants a pretty tank. I have never once argued I keep snakes in tubs because it's convenience, and what I find better suited for the animals. Either way it comes down to keeper preference, my problem is the idea that mine aren't as healthy, or its "cruel" to keep them in this method whereas the high and mighty fancy enclosure people are the only ones doing it correct. Big difference. I've never ONCE bashed the idea of keeping them in a large enclosure, if that's what you want to do GOOD FOR YOU, however, it doesn't make my method cruel or wrong, or any worse for the snake.

Hmmmm...seems like a bit of a contradiction eh? Also "eating, being somewhat active, and reproducing" are not proof of much. Humans can and do survive in small prison cells for decades, an alien could peer down and say "now see, he eats everyday and breeds if given the chance therefore he must be content in that environment".

Your comparing an animal that runs on instinct such as a snake, who has natural predators, to the most complex species on the planet. There is a lot different between a thinking being such as a human, and a non thinking being such a snake. I would never advice keeping gorillas, elephants, dolphins, monitors, dogs, etc in small cages due to the fact they actually have thinking and problem solving abilities, snakes, do not. Huge difference.

Fact is in nature Garters are fairly busy little guys, whether for food or heat or whatever. In a captive environment they are still hard wired to want some activity, and their nature does not change simply because they don't need to hunt for food constantly.

Which is why all my garters in tubs are not "super active and hard wired to be active". Garters go out to move for a reason, if there is no reason, the snake will not move. Period.

Humans have very LITTLE understanding of how most other species interpret their world. To think we understand them and their perception is quite ignorant and arrogant on our part. Keep in mind a few decades ago doctors "knew" that newborn human infants could NOT feel pain, they would perform major surgery on those infants and they were certain the cries and thrashing were involuntary responses that had NOTHING to do with actually suffering because the infants were physically incapable of experiencing real pain.

Again, different ballgame, that's pure stupidity on there behalf in thinking that a higher organism with an intelligent brain, ability to learn and grow and understand problem solving could not feel pain. Then again, that has little to do with the brain in general in this sense, and more to due with the central nervous system. Show me a trained snake, with some cognitive intelligence, and I'll openly declare I was wrong. Until a snake is able to be trained in some sort of manner to solve a multi step problem (the ability to think ahead to an end result), I still maintain these animals are nothing more than instinct.

We have NO real understanding regarding the psychology of most animals! Even the psychology of canines is hotly debated. How can anyone even pretend to understand their psychology when you yourself say they can't tell you what they are thinking?

No, however, we perceive animals as intelligence based upon the ability to think ahead and figure out an end result, multi step problems, things of this nature. Again, dogs have been PROVEN on multiple levels to understand multi step problems, be able to solve a problem, and work as a team. Anyone who thinks a solitary snake has the brainpower anywhere near a social mammal probably failed simple biology classes in middle school.

At least we agree on that subject.
I find the activity levels of Garter Snakes amusing to me.
Hiding this behind an opaque wall would defeat the entire purpose of having it. Beauty is to be admired, not hidden.

I do appreciate the personal stab at me due to the fact I view housing of captive snakes a little different, goes to show you're extremely mature. Clearly the idea of me taking a day off of responding and dedicating 20 minutes to typing out my reasons for viewing, in order to take care of my myriad of animals and personal problems, is a valid excuse for your behavior. The last thing on my mind when I have animals to build homes for, and work to do, is getting online to argue with YOU, because in the grand scheme of things, I literally do not think about this subject 99% of my day.

Again, if you find it amusing, keep them in a large enclosure, I have no problem with this. Just don't tell me my tub is cruel, and such a horrible environment, because the snake DOES NOT CARE. If you want to admire the beauty of the snake, go ahead, I'm not stopping you, I'm simply saying I keep them for other reasons, and being able to watch them, is not what I care about.

I think you're a little out-voted Milinex. Garters are VERY active and should have room to explore.

FYI, guys, I'm probably not going keep anything in the 5gal other than maybe a Pacman frog. The next things I'm getting is another garter snake, and a water snake hopefully, both are going in 15-29 gal tanks. Thanks for your help on what can live in one though, I may use it, I may not.

And yeah, Steve list 'em all!!

Hey Wayne, you mind telling me what bedding you're using in that picture? I'd like to find something like that but they all have sand in them... and from what I've heard that's bad for garters.

Again, I could care less if an internet forum disagrees with my methods of keeping (the same method used by thousands of keepers with very little ill effects), I'm not out to prove mine is better, I'm defending the point that my tub system is not cruel, and does not harm the animal, and again, "exploring" is a thinking term, garter snakes do not think, no snake does.

As for sand, not all sand is bad, I've found plenty of them in the wild using sandy areas, as long as there are other places to be, other than on the rough sand, the snake will be fine. Impaction is generally caused by keeper inability, not the substrate.

Two thoughts. First of all I am not sure they experience emotions like fear the way other animals (including humans do). It may be more of a preprogrammed automatic response but regardless it causes STRESS which is no doubt unpleasant for them. Likewise I do think they can experience pleasurable activities as well, chowing down on a good meal, lounging in the basking spot and enjoying the warmth, investigating the activities of the "giant" to see if they will offer food or provide some interesting interaction.

It's an instinct, stress is too much stimulus leading to the animals natural fight or flight reflex, in most cases, its flight- hiding and refusing to eat. I also don't think it's "pleasure", as snake brains are not complex enough to recognize pleasure in the same sense that humans or other social animals do. I would not argue that basking, water, food, is a good thing for them, however it's just fulfilling the instinctual voids that the animal needs to provide. As for investigating the giant, I don't think it's investigating looking for food/interaction, as that would involve some sort of higher thinking, I do believe that the snake will eventually become accustomed to the giant, and it will not cause stress to hinder instinctual behavior.

Is it "emotion" the way we sense it? I do not know but does that even matter? Pain/pleasure/stress/contentment is every bit as important, it defines the quality of life.

I would agree that a snake can feel pain, and stress, however "contentment" and "pain" I do not think snakes feel at all.

Regarding "instinct" vs. "emotion". Realize many (or possibly most) human emotions are based on instinct as well. The love for ones newborn baby (hormones surging), the feeling of protectiveness towards ones children, the bonding with sex partners (helpful in raising offspring successfully), the need to live in family groups and display forms of loyalty to associates. Those may seem like high and mighty "special" human attributes but many are based on INSTINCT and HORMONES and are designed to further our own survival and the survival of our offspring.

Not arguing this, however, humans can think, reasons, solve problems, things of that nature. We can figure out 2+2=4, this is what sets us apart. All animals act on instinct, however, snakes, and most reptiles, do not have the problem solving abilities that we do. That is what makes us different.