Safety issue feeding earthworms

[mcspin]

I've seen the repeated warnings about feeding compost worms and iffy warnings about European Nightcrawlers. What I haven't been able to find is any detail on what the problem is. I've spent some time searching and haven't been able to find a single study that describes what the problem is. I haven't even found an account of a person who has actually lost a snake that was being fed exclusively any type of worm where the death can be attributed to the worms.

I have a lot of questions and thought maybe someone here can supply some detail. Is it a toxic compound that the worm produces? If so, what is it? Or, is it likely the worms were feeding on rotting material that is very high in a type of virulent bacteria? Or, is it possibly due to a contaminant that got on the worm before feeding. Is the death quick after eating a few worms, or does it take days, weeks or months? Is the problem only with one specie of worms or more? Has anyone here actually lost a snake they know was killed by eating a particular type of worm?

It would seem to me that if there is a real and serious issue that there would be some kind of detailed information on the problem. Lot's of beginners would feed worms without ever coming to the internet to find these details. I would expect to see reports of people with dying snakes that just ate a bunch of worms coming here for help. I can't find anything other than anecdotal accounts that are usually more of the " I've heard that it's bad". Heck, I fed some white worms before learning of the worm "problem" and the garters gobbled them down. They are easy to culture so I can always go that route, but I think red worms would be more nutritious.

Since I'm going to culture a worm for the snakes, it would sure make it a lot easier to culture a worm that is prolific and with a wide temperature tolerance. It would also be nice to find some reliable information on what exactly the problem with some worms is. If no one knows, I will eventually set up my own experiments and find out, but I can't do that with the few garters I have at this time. So, if you have a link to a good source explaining this problem I would greatly appreciate it.

[guidofatherof5]

Eisenia fetida, red wiggler, panfish worms (sold at Walmart).
I have seen first hand what these worms can do to little snakes. Many years ago I fed some to my garters and the reaction was quite dramatic. Snakes puking and a few having small seizures. I never lost any snakes but count myself lucky. I'll see what I can find with regards to the yellow liquid they use.

[mcspin]

Thanks for that account. So, it appears if I feed a worm that is one of the problem species, I would see a reaction the day I feed the snakes. Does Walmart label what species they are selling? From what I've read, there are at least 3-4 different species of Eisenia.

[guidofatherof5]

As long as you feed Canadian Night Crawlers - Lumbricus terrestris there is no need to worry. Avoid anything labeled Panfish worms, Red Wigglers, etc. Walmart labels theirs "Panfish Worms". In light of the safe worms out there it's best to avoid any Eisenia.
Night crawlers can be cut into very small pieces for little scrubs.

[Rushthezeppelin]

There are some studies that suggest the toxicity of the yellow secretion from red wigglers is only toxic if they have been feeding in compost and other anaerobic rotting matter. In theory a wiggler fed in a non-anaerobic environment would not have a toxicity to it's secretion. I think this explains why some people don't report anything feeding them lots of times while other's get a dead snake from puking it's guts out within hours of the first one. Regardless I'm not interested in furthering this study atm so I personally stick with the canadian nightcrawlers. If I do see enough peer reviewed evidence on this though I would probably end up adding some to my enclosure I'm working on (it's a bioactive setup) as they would not be exposed to near as much anaerobic bacteria in that environment and actually help to cleanup snake poop when not being eaten.

[Qwerty3159]

Fed some of these to a toad many years ago. He loved nightcrawlers, but immediately spit these out when they gummed up his mouth with their secretions.

At the very least, I wouldn't feed them at all just to be safe. They're also marketed as Trout Worms in bait shops.

[mcspin]

There are some studies that suggest the toxicity of the yellow secretion from red wigglers is only toxic if they have been feeding in compost and other anaerobic rotting matter. In theory a wiggler fed in a non-anaerobic environment would not have a toxicity to it's secretion. I think this explains why some people don't report anything feeding them lots of times while other's get a dead snake from puking it's guts out within hours of the first one. Regardless I'm not interested in furthering this study atm so I personally stick with the canadian nightcrawlers. If I do see enough peer reviewed evidence on this though I would probably end up adding some to my enclosure I'm working on (it's a bioactive setup) as they would not be exposed to near as much anaerobic bacteria in that environment and actually help to cleanup snake poop when not being eaten.

This is my own personal suspicion. I use to raise them in large numbers to feed fish. I never had one with a yellow tail or one that smelled bad. I was very careful to feed only vegetable matter and only enough to be consumed well within 48 hours. The fish grew unbelievably fast and seemed to relish them. What I really enjoyed about culturing my own, was having the ability to control what they ate and how they were raised. I was convinced that worms raised on the best foods made fish grow even faster. I also made sure that the worms went at least 2 days without food before they were fed to the fish. I thought it was important to clean their gut out before the fish ate them.

I have no interest in culturing something like Canadian nightcrawlers - last time I tried, they died out after awhile. I think it was very moderate heat that they couldn't handle and the culture never got large enough to feed out of it. Maybe if I had a refrigerated room, it might be worth to try it again.

[Rushthezeppelin]

Its near impossible to culture nightcrawlers because they require at least 6' of soil depth (that's the reason they need to stay in your fridge....it's about 50 down there). The ones you buy at the store are mostly wild, mostly caught electrocuting the ground.

[joeysgreen]

I cultured red wrigglers in many of my enclosures and used them as feeders to whomever might like them. They were labeled red wrigglers but other than that I don't know what species they were; definitely not night crawlers, they were rather small.

[guidofatherof5]

I would caution anyone using any compost worms as feeders, especially with neonates/small snakes.