Califor. King Snake

[infernalis]

I have seen too many photos of Burms and Retics shoved into 4-6 foot enclosures, folded over on themselves for lack of room.

Yes that is sad, Yet unthinking folks who must have that "impressive" snake get in way over their heads time after time...

I have always found Anacondas fascinating, but until I could have a 20 foot by 20 foot paddock that would make a zoo proud, I'll pass on even trying to keep one.

[tyflier]

I think you're just being remarkably myopic.

Why do you think they are found in the same area? Do you think there might be connection between that reason and maybe a reason why somebody might assert that you can't keep cali kings the same way that you can keep corns or other rat snakes?

Oh, so now we've narrowed down the term "care" as well, first to "conditions" and then to "temperature" (and we've added a boid as well). So let's see if I've got this straight: "Standard" means applicable to an arbitrary percentage and according to rules that can be arbitrarily be ignored, "colubrid" means the three North American species of colubrid that are sold most often and "care" means temperature.

And I think your being incredibly difficult.

The bottom line is you can sit there and micromanage hundreds of tiny little enclosures all day every day if that is your desire. But that is NOT what is required to properly care for these animals in captivity.

Keep it simple. Really...this is not rocket science, it's a pet hobby. It's people like you with an intolerable pentient for making the easiest things about the hobby seem incredibly difficult that keep so many new keepers and would-be lovers of snakes at bay and out of the hobby. Get over yourself. You aren't saving the world, you aren't solving any major crises, and you certainly aren't doing anything that the average 12 year old kid couldn't do with a little bit of information and knowledge. It simply is not as difficult as you would like to think.

As well...the North American colubrids are the ones most commonly kept as pets in this hobby not only in North America, but pretty much around the world.

Adamanteus-

I disagree. The term "standard colubrid care" is a term widely used to describe the captivce care of the largest grouping of colubrids available in the pet trade. I've seen it, heard it, and used myself hundreds of times. Unless this is the only forum you frequent...you've seen it too.

As regards "care"...why would it reflect a section of a group of animals that are not available in the pet trade? Why would the term "care" bring to mind ANYTHING other than a group that were readily available as pets?

I'm sorry, but I simply don't see the benefit of insulting someone who is trying to help, nor do I see the point in trying to turn an easy hobby into something only a special few can do.

You two are the moderators of a world wide forum, yea? Than you should be going out of your way to bring people IN to the hobby, not push them away. Telling people they aren't ready to rescue an animal that could be introuble just because they asked a question is HORRIBLY arrogant. Telling people that caring for a kingsnake is not even close to caring for a cornsnake, and turning an EASY hobby into a science that only a few elite people can participate in is HORRIBLY arrogant. It is THAT arrogance in THIS hobby that keep so many people away from it, and frankly, I think you both are doing HUGE disservice TO this hobby THROUGH your arrogance.

C'est la vie...it's your forum, do what you will. I would MUCH rather spend my time and energy with a group of people that care more about the fun and learning and teaching and sharing that this hobby is supposed to be about than an arrogant bunch of wannabe scientists that seem bent opn proving they are somehow better than everyone else simply because they know a few big words.

guidofatherof5-
I wish you the best. I fully support you in getting this animal and actually trying to gain some knowledge and make a difference. Too many people are willing to turn a blind eye or turn this hobby into a science to see that what you are doing would be the right thing. Go for it. I go by "KingofColubrids" and "tyflier" in MANY forums that are not nearly as arrogant as this one is. Look me up if you need a hand...

Later y'all. I need to go vomit from the stench of arrogance and false knowledge now...

[adamanteus]

It is that very stench that keeps me away from most other forums...... Forums where everyone is a self-professed expert, and the degree of knowledge is measured by the quantity (or value) of snakes they have acquired. Where novices are ignored, or given two-word answers. Where if the answer isn't known, they will invent one or use a 'catch-phrase' to cover their ignorance. Where everyone is a 'reptile rescue'.

With no other group of animals would a novice be encouraged to take on 'any species'. So many times I have seen these rescuers swamped by huge numbers of unwanted animals, which they have neither the money, knowledge or equipment to care for. So many times I have seen the animals seized from these well-meaning but ill-advised people. Very subtle of you to pass over my comment about huge pythons in tiny enclosures, by the way. You know this to be the truth.... this is what happens, it is the unfortunate fate of most of the amateur reptile rescues I have seen.

I don't think I was in any way insulting to Steve, I simply stated my opinion, which is what a forum is all about. If you post on it, someone is bound to disagree. You speak of arrogance, but you have brought to this forum a degree of arrogance and aggression which we haven't seen for a long time. Some people do react that way when others disagree with them. They resort to insults and name calling.

This forum isn't, and never will be elitist. It welcomes, with equal warmth, experienced keepers and novices alike. Maybe you should spend a little more time reading the forum, and gather some experience of us, before you judge us.

[tyflier]

This thread, and your response, along with Stefan-A, are the very definitions of arrogance. The guy came and asked for help on caring for a Cali King...arguably one of the easiest snakes to care for in captivity. Why is it one of the easiest? Because they thrive in a variety of natural conditions...like most North American Colubrids, ironically enough. This fact alone makes there general care requirements EXTREMELY easy to meet.

We aren't talking about special needs animals. We aren't talking about large pythons and boas. We aren't talking about specialists and habitat-specific animals. We are talking about the "garbage disposals" of the snake world when we talk about *most* N.A. colubrids. They absolutely THRIVE under such an incredibly diverse natural environment, that a general average can be given to them in captivity and they can thrive and be incredibly healthy. This is why they are found throughout the country, AND why they are so popular as pets.

Telling someone that simply because they don't know how to care for a Cali king means they aren't experienced enough to rescue one is arrogant, no matter how many differnt ways you try to paint it. The answer to the question is simple...about 80-85*F on one side and room temp on the other of a 20long aquairum. 50% relative humidity. Two hides, a water dish and a suitable substrate. Feed it about once a week. It will thrive. Any other "issues" that come up need to be dealt with as they arise, certainly. But those issues WON'T be husbandry related if you follow those basic and easy guidelines.

Ironically enough...those same guidelines can be applied to almost all N.A. Colubrids, but especially to the ones falling into the Lampropeltis, Pituophis, and Pantherophis genera of snakes...which make up the largest percentage of the snakes available in the pet trade. That's a fact, not an opinion.

Do I get aggressive? No...I stand up for myself. I also stand up for others. Does that make some people uncomfortable? Probably, but that really isn't my problem.

Quite simply...you failed in your efforts. The responses coming from yourself and Stefan-A in this thread are INCREDIBLY arrogant. I agree with you on self-professed experts being a detriment. I agree that newbies and experienced keepers alike should be welcome in the hobby. I agree with you that there are far too many forums floating around the net where those things don't happen.

Problem is...you and Stefan-A, in THIS thread, are doing the exact same disservice to the hobby. You two are acting in the exact same manner, and treating the original poster in the same manner you profess to despise.

There really is no reason for Stefan-A to have been arguing the way he has been. Heck, half of his arguments, I have to wonder if he even understood what was being said, because it doesn't seem so. Either that or he is following definitions that are so strict they don't allow room for communication. That's arrogant.

Forcing people interested in a HOBBY to follow the strictest of scientific definitions during a non-scientific discussion is arrogant. And it is elitist. Tell yourself whatever you'd like to feel better about it, but that is a fact.

Have I seen this attitude displayed elsewhere on this forum? Yea...I have. Guess by whom? Does it run rampant on this forum as it does on others? Nope. But it is still present. And it still rears it's ugly head from time to time. At least there are only a couple people that do it, though...

As for your reptile rescues comments and the like...I agree with you. I agree that there should be Regulations put in place for the operation of these facilities. Where I live...there are. Before I can open MY rescue, I need to have a state Propogation Permit, a resident Vet Tech on staff, and I need to have a state sanctioned Rehabilition License and Certification. We're still working on it, but we're getting there. My propogation permit will be finalized in January of '09. My partner and girlfriend is in the process of reciveing her Vet Tech certification and rehabilitation certification. Together we will open a rehab center for NATIVE species and a living museum for educational purposes. And you can bet that every person that walks through the door will be treated with respect, regardless of how many big words they know, how long they have been keeping snakes, or how many different species of obscure snake they have dealt with...until they no,longer deserve that respect.

Yea, it bothers me to see people taking in more animals than they can handle, and not knowing the difference between rescuing and forcing an animal to live. Yea, it bothers me to see people jump into the hobby without a real understanding of these animals. Yea, it pains me to see people having owned snakes for all of 2 months trying to breed them. So what. It happens, and there isn't a whole lot I can do about it except shake my head, and wait to read the inevitable "My snake died" thread.

Yes, it bothers me to see people caring for high-maintenance animals improperly. Yes, I would like it to stop. But treating people with disdain for their efforts, and forcing people into a battle of definitions and semantics for no reason other than to appear more knowledgeable isn't a solution to the problem. In fact, it only perpetuates the problem by turning beginners and would-be beginners against us. It turns people away from the hobby and makes them afraid to ask questions.

You can say what you want about me, and you can pat yourself on the back all you care to. But this thread is NOT what you intended this forum to be. This thread, and the attitudes displayed by yourself and Stefan-A are precisely the attitudes you claim to be so against.

C'est la vie. It's your forum. Do with it as you will...

[adamanteus]

It would appear you haven't read my posts in this thread, Chris. I already stated quite clearly that Cali Kings are simple to care for. The point I plainly made was that if a person does not understand this simple care, it might be a mistake to advertise his or her willingness to take in 'any unwanted snakes'.... (not my words!) In which case we very probably are taking about large pythons and boas or animals with special husbandry needs. I certainly never suggested he wasn't fit to take in this Cali King.
I stand by what I said... if a person doesn't have the knowledge or experience to care for a Cali King, it would be unwise to offer husbandry services for any unwanted snake.
As far as I can glean from the rest of your post, you seem to agree with me on all other matters.
I have re-read my posts, and I fail to find the arrogance you accuse me of. If I have offended Steve in the way I worded my reply, I apologise to him for that, but I stand by the content of the reply.
And by the way.... it's not my forum! It belongs to us all.

[tyflier]

It would appear you haven't read my posts in this thread, Chris. I already stated quite clearly that Cali Kings are simple to care for. The point I plainly made was that if a person does not understand this simple care, it might be a mistake to advertise his or her willingness to take in 'any unwanted snakes'.... (not my words!) In which case we very probably are taking about large pythons and boas or animals with special husbandry needs. I certainly never suggested he wasn't fit to take in this Cali King.
I stand by what I said... if a person doesn't have the knowledge or experience to care for a Cali King, it would be unwise to offer husbandry services for any unwanted snake.
As far as I can glean from the rest of your post, you seem to agree with me on all other matters.
I have re-read my posts, and I fail to find the arrogance you accuse me of. If I have offended Steve in the way I worded my reply, I apologise to him for that, but I stand by the content of the reply.
And by the way.... it's not my forum! It belongs to us all.

**emphasis mine
The answers you gave him were the only thing I had a problem with. With the bolded statement...you're a man of honor.

I took your statements to be more "inclusive" than a simple comment on the "any unwanted snake" aspect of his advertisement. That would be MY shortcoming, and for that I apologize.

I would point out that having an advertisement like that gives him the option to accept or deny whatever is offered him. And coming here for help before accepting a Cal king shows that he WANTS to do the right thing. He deserves credit for his effort, IMO.

[Charlet_2007]

ok if they don't know how to take care of a King snake then they've got to start somewhere right? How did you learn how to take care of garters? by learning and asking people for help am i right? At least he didnt get the king snake then was like OH crap what am i doing now.. He actully asked for help..

And you 2 fighting/arguing on here is probably not helping him or anyone on this site.. Both of your all points have been made time and time and time again.. Lets all agree to disagree OK?

[adamanteus]

He deserves credit for his effort, IMO.

Undoubtedly.....


"I don't doubt that your motives are honourable (and commendable) Steve. It just concerns me that you could easily be saddled with a snake you can't even identify, much less care for, by placing such an ad. Don't forget, by making this offer you are giving people the impression that you can provide better care for the animal than they can...... If you have no knowledge or experience of this animal (whereas they do) this impression would be misleading. I speak from experience..... I did a similar thing myself, years ago. The first snake to come into my care was a European Cat Snake (Telescopus fallax) with mouth-rot. I failed... utterly."

And I already told him so.....

"Of course I respect your opinion, and I respect what you're trying to do...."

[Stefan-A]

I'm sorry, but I simply don't see the benefit of insulting someone who is trying to help

Yet you seem to go out of your way to do it. I wonder if you appreciate the fact that I haven't been returning your insults?

Forcing people interested in a HOBBY to follow the strictest of scientific definitions during a non-scientific discussion is arrogant.

Strictest? How about even the loosest definitions?

As for the rest of that inane drivel you've posted; Opinion noted.

[jitami]

Ok, Group Hug

Yeah, I know, not going to happen... BUT I would hate to lose the knowledge of any of you... I don't want to track anyone down on another forum... I want to come here, to our comfy little home, and read what each of you has to offer, to share, to teach. Can we simply drop this one and start anew?