Califor. King Snake

[Stefan-A]

Well, Heterodon could be kept following the "standard" guidelines with little issue, IF it is eating pinkies. As a matter of fact, so could most Thamnophis IF they accept pinkies and mice.

And provided that it's not one of the Heterodon species that shouldn't be fed mice (according to the care sheets that I remember reading).

Haven't you ever heard the phrase, "There's an exception to every rule"?

There isn't, though. That's kinda what makes it a rule.

You have 3 genera of snakes that combined make up less than 3% of the total colubrid species available widely distributed in the pet trade. Than you have 3 or 4 genera that make up about 93%. And you still don't agree it's "standard" or "general"?

The reality is, Pantherophis, Lampropeltis, and Pituophis make up an insurmountable majority of the colubrid snakes available in the pet trade. We're not talking about 51% here...we're talking about 90% or better. Certainly there are other colubrid species available. Those species are not nearly as wide spread in captivity as the "Big Three". And usually, people keeping those species have more than an elementary experience.

Let's recap. We started with a statement that referred to an entire family of snakes. The most diverse family. Then it was suggested that the term that covers an entire family would mean just species that are reasonably often available. And now we're at a point where the term that covers the largest and most diverse family of snakes is supposed to be used to describe the species with the largest market share. Why not just take that one extra step and assert that colubrid = corn snake? It's not like the either of the remaining two in the "Big Three" even comes close.

Damn straight I don't agree it's standard or general, if we have to make up rules to exclude nearly all the species referred to by the terms we are using.

[tyflier]

I think you're nitpicking. I think that the phrase "standard colubrid care" is VERY EASILY recognizeable for what it is, what it is meant to be, and what it was intended as in this topic. You're just being picky and difficult.

When you really get down to it...there is actually very little that links all of the different genera within the Colubrid family of snakes. It is the "catchall" for taxonomists. If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it automatically becomes a colubrid. And MOST of them can be kept under the conditions described as "general colubrid care". There are aproximately 1,000 species of colubrid in the world, and of them...it would be my estimation that roughly 70% can be kept similarly to a California King, with minor variations to humidity, temperature, and cage size. THAT, my friend, makes it pretty "standard"...by anyone's definition...except maybe yours...

And just so you don't think I forgot...there ARE exceptions to every rule. Some people just prefer to see things in black and white. Unfortunately for those people...they miss all the shades of gray in between. And that is where the beauty lies. ESPECIALLY in this hobby of ours...

Oh yea, one more thing...nobody ever tried to redefine the family of colubrids or the term to describe them, and nobody ever tried to turn "colubrids" into "cornsnakes". You're being a bit extreme. We DEFINED the term "standard" as it was being used. There is nothing wrong with that...it's called language, and people do it all the time.

And if you don't think care for the "big three" in the pet trade even come close, than you have no idea how to keep any opf the snakes in those three Genera, because they are all incredibly similar down to feeding prey size and schedules.

The biggest problem you're having is seperating scientific taxonomy from keeping pet snakes. You're trying to hold scientific definitions against a bunch of pet snake keepers. Lighten up before you have a stroke...

[Charlet_2007]

I think you're nitpicking. I think that the phrase "standard colubrid care" is VERY EASILY recognizeable for what it is, what it is meant to be, and what it was intended as in this topic. You're just being picky and difficult.

When you really get down to it...there is actually very little that links all of the different genera within the Colubrid family of snakes. It is the "catchall" for taxonomists. If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it automatically becomes a colubrid. And MOST of them can be kept under the conditions described as "general colubrid care". There are aproximately 1,000 species of colubrid in the world, and of them...it would be my estimation that roughly 70% can be kept similarly to a California King, with minor variations to humidity, temperature, and cage size. THAT, my friend, makes it pretty "standard"...by anyone's definition...except maybe yours...

And just so you don't think I forgot...there ARE exceptions to every rule. Some people just prefer to see things in black and white. Unfortunately for those people...they miss all the shades of gray in between. And that is where the beauty lies. ESPECIALLY in this hobby of ours...

Oh yea, one more thing...nobody ever tried to redefine the family of colubrids or the term to describe them, and nobody ever tried to turn "colubrids" into "cornsnakes". You're being a bit extreme. We DEFINED the term "standard" as it was being used. There is nothing wrong with that...it's called language, and people do it all the time.

And if you don't think care for the "big three" in the pet trade even come close, than you have no idea how to keep any opf the snakes in those three Genera, because they are all incredibly similar down to feeding prey size and schedules.

The biggest problem you're having is seperating scientific taxonomy from keeping pet snakes. You're trying to hold scientific definitions against a bunch of pet snake keepers. Lighten up before you have a stroke...

I agree with you 100% thanks for that info man.. two thumbs up

[Stefan-A]

I think you're nitpicking. I think that the phrase "standard colubrid care" is VERY EASILY recognizeable for what it is, what it is meant to be, and what it was intended as in this topic. You're just being picky and difficult.

Consider it a protest against the misuse of taxonomic terms.

When you really get down to it...there is actually very little that links all of the different genera within the Colubrid family of snakes. It is the "catchall" for taxonomists. If it doesn't fit anywhere else, it automatically becomes a colubrid.

I know, I pointed it out at least once.

And MOST of them can be kept under the conditions described as "general colubrid care". There are aproximately 1,000 species of colubrid in the world, and of them...it would be my estimation that roughly 70% can be kept similarly to a California King, with minor variations to humidity, temperature, and cage size. THAT, my friend, makes it pretty "standard"...by anyone's definition...except maybe yours...

Cali Kings can't even be kept the same way as your average Pantherophis, how do you figure that 70% of all snakes under Colubridae could? Some New World and Old World rat snakes are similar and most kingsnakes appear to have similar needs, but how you got 70% is beyond me. And may I point out that you're now allowing variations as well as exceptions? You're constantly moving further and further away from the concepts of both "standard" and "colubrid". How about non-colubrids? How many of them can be kept under the same conditions as CaliKings? All species sympatric with those hypothetical 70%?

And just so you don't think I forgot...there ARE exceptions to every rule. Some people just prefer to see things in black and white. Unfortunately for those people...they miss all the shades of gray in between. And that is where the beauty lies. ESPECIALLY in this hobby of ours...

Funny, it's the shades of grey that I'm pointing out here. Maybe I'm just allowing more shades than Paint has on its toolbar. But there really are no exceptions to a rule, the rule just gets ignored.

Oh yea, one more thing...nobody ever tried to redefine the family of colubrids or the term to describe them, and nobody ever tried to turn "colubrids" into "cornsnakes". You're being a bit extreme. We DEFINED the term "standard" as it was being used. There is nothing wrong with that...it's called language, and people do it all the time.

The term was getting redefined because of the context it was being used in and both terms already have their set definitions, everything else is just abuse of those terms. You're right, nobody tried to turn "colubrids" into "corn snakes", but the arguments that people used would have done that.

And if you don't think care for the "big three" in the pet trade even come close, than you have no idea how to keep any opf the snakes in those three Genera, because they are all incredibly similar down to feeding prey size and schedules.

I was talking about the market share, just like you did in the post I was replying to and that was actually an argument that you were using, so what exactly are you arguing against?

The biggest problem you're having is seperating scientific taxonomy from keeping pet snakes. You're trying to hold scientific definitions against a bunch of pet snake keepers.

I'm advocating separating scientific taxonomy from keeping pet snakes. If you want to lump a bunch of snakes together, you need to come up with your own word for that group. Colubrid is already taken by the scientific community and my standard name recommendation is "Bob".

Lighten up before you have a stroke...

Thank you so much for your concern.

[tyflier]

Well..I was going to read your entire post, but then I got to this:

...Cali Kings can't even be kept the same way as your average Pantherophis, how do you figure that 70% of all snakes under Colubridae could?...

And quit because you are absolutely, positively, without a doubt, 100% WRONG. L.g. californae can be kept under the EXACT SAME CONDITIONS as a MAJORITY of the Pantherophis genera of snakes without any issues.

How else do you explain the FACT that you can find Cali kings in the same area as several species of ratsnake, including, but not limited to, obsoleta, spiloides, and emoryi? How esle do you explain the FACT that California king care is precisely the same as Florida king care and floridana are found in the exact same locations as guttata? How else do you explain the FACT that with MINOR variations in temperature(and we're talking 3-5*F here...not 10 or 15...) you can keep ALL snakes in the Lampropeltis genus, and they are mostly found within FEET of many species in the Pantherophis family?

I won't even bother reading the rest of your replies if this is any indication of your how well you know these animals and their captive care requirements.

If nothing else...please realize that a difference of 3-5*F is something that all 50 of my Lampropeltis, Pantherophis, Lichanura, Pituophis, and Thamnophis are seperated by, and they all thrive and reproduce...without any issues. And I have done it this way for 20 years and change without a single issue...

Nitpick the "misuse" of taxonomic terminology all you want...the above are all facts that you simply cannot argue with, my friend...

By the way...How many North American colubrids do you have in Finland? How much native habitat and observation of these animals have you actually done that gives you such knowledge of what they require to be kept successfully in captivity?

A better question would be...whose care sheets are you reading that have thrown your captive care requirements for these animals SO far off base that you actually and honestly believe that a Cali King and a Texas Ratsnake can't be kept under the exact same conditions?

To the original poster...I'm sorry this topic got dragged so far away from your original question. BACK to that question...care for a Cali king is extremely easy. Follow any caresheet worth it's salt for a cornsnake, kingsnake, gophersnake, bullsnake, milksnake, ratsnake, or rosy boa, and you'll be just fine. Don't worry about the rest of this topic. If you have any specific questions...shoot me line via PM and I'll be happy to help you out...I'm done with this topic...

[guidofatherof5]

The way it looks I won't be getting the snake. No call from the lady. I appreciate everyones input. Thanks

[adamanteus]

This thread certainly did get a little out of hand for a while there, but there is a good and valid point that it being glossed over...... There is no such thing as a 'standard' colubrid.
This may well be a phrase used in the US pet trade to describe the three genera mentioned, but this is not a US forum, it's a world-wide forum. I have never heard the phrase used by serious minded keepers here in the UK, and I've been keeping reptiles for over 40 years. If there were a 'standard', it would surely be a tropical arboreal form, which probably make up the largest single group within the colubrids.
More over, if a person doesn't know how to keep a Cali King (arguably one of the easiest of snakes to care for), they are probably not going to gain much insight from a phrase such as 'standard colubrid care'. Plus this phrase would be very misleading for our innumerable non US members, who are not au fait with American slang, and may well have to translate into their own language.
Anyway, that's not really the point.... When I raised the issue, it wasn't inaccurate terminology I was trying to highlight..... It was the fact that so many people set themselves up as would be rescuers, when they have too little knowledge (or amenities) to care for their rescues. This is how so many large pythons end up living in 6 foot tanks etc. Loving snakes is not enough.
In my view, if you don't already know the captive care of a Cali King, you're not ready or able to be a rescuer of 'any snake'.

[Stefan-A]

Well..I was going to read your entire post, but then I got to this:

And quit because you are absolutely, positively, without a doubt, 100% WRONG. L.g. californae can be kept under the EXACT SAME CONDITIONS as a MAJORITY of the Pantherophis genera of snakes without any issues.

I think you're just being remarkably myopic.

How else do you explain the FACT that you can find Cali kings in the same area as several species of ratsnake, including, but not limited to, obsoleta, spiloides, and emoryi? How esle do you explain the FACT that California king care is precisely the same as Florida king care and floridana are found in the exact same locations as guttata? How else do you explain the FACT that with MINOR variations in temperature(and we're talking 3-5*F here...not 10 or 15...) you can keep ALL snakes in the Lampropeltis genus, and they are mostly found within FEET of many species in the Pantherophis family?

Why do you think they are found in the same area? Do you think there might be connection between that reason and maybe a reason why somebody might assert that you can't keep cali kings the same way that you can keep corns or other rat snakes?

If nothing else...please realize that a difference of 3-5*F is something that all 50 of my Lampropeltis, Pantherophis, Lichanura, Pituophis, and Thamnophis are seperated by, and they all thrive and reproduce...without any issues. And I have done it this way for 20 years and change without a single issue...

Oh, so now we've narrowed down the term "care" as well, first to "conditions" and then to "temperature" (and we've added a boid as well). So let's see if I've got this straight: "Standard" means applicable to an arbitrary percentage and according to rules that can be arbitrarily be ignored, "colubrid" means the three North American species of colubrid that are sold most often and "care" means temperature.

[guidofatherof5]

Sorry to disagree with you James. I respect your opinion and hope you do mine. My abilities can many times be far better than the care they are recieving. I am trying to keep some snakes from being put to death. My continued eduaction is an ongoing process but waiting until it's adaquate may not be good timing for some snakes. My reason for the thread was because I do care and needed advice from people who are more in the know. I am not wearing my heart on my sleeve. I don't consided myself unable to rescue "any" snake. I have done so in the past with great results. Relocating and finding great homes with caring people for these snakes. Thanks for your thoughts.

[adamanteus]

Of course I respect your opinion, and I respect what you're trying to do.... I was merely reiterating what I said to you earlier in the thread, and pointing out that 'standard care' isn't the most enlightening of responses to one who doesn't know the care of a Cali King, in an effort to bring the thread back to where it started.
My remarks about rescuing aren't aimed specifically at you, but you must understand what I mean about huge pythons in tiny tanks? It happens all the time.