Frogs?????

[GradStudentLeper]

I am interested in knowing what sorts of parasites pinkies contain that can be transferred to snakes. Especially the lab mice that people tend to use to feed their reptiles.

A staggering diversity of helminth parasites. A seach through the literature I just performed brings up 850 articles on parasite infections in mice. Characterizing them would take me a few weeks to go through each article and catalogue everything. Suffice to say, some of those parasites will be host specific to mice, others would be opportunists, and the snakes may or may not be able to respond to the ones that are opportunists. In many cases that response just consists of a passive diversion of energy away from reproduction toward body maintainence to offset what the parasite takes.

As far as immune systems dealing with parasites, isn't is possible that an Indonesian snake being fed fish from other countries may be getting parasites from those fish that it's completely unaccustomed to dealing with? Wouldn't the same be true when feeding an Indonesian snake American frogs?

I am not talking about indonesian snakes now am I? You are very very good at constructing strawman arguments. Guess what, what is pretty intellectually dishonest, even if it is a skill.


I am referring to North American Garter snakes in the genus Thamnophis. If you want to get into the asian "Garters" then no, I would not recommend feeding them north american frogs. Or locally available fish. As a matter of fact, I would not recommend keeping indonesian snakes at all, or any non-captive bred exotic reptile because all it does is encourage commercial collection which has this odd tendency to wipe out populations of the slow breeding animals.

That having been said, it is up in the air. It would depend on whether or not the parasites can use the snake as a host (which, if they use american snakes as a host the answer is probably yes for a good number of them, with that number getting higher the more closely related the snakes are to eachother), whether or not the parasites are related to something the snake would otherwise see (if so, the chance of a response is fairly good, depending on chemical markers) ect.

Fish and frog parasites are not the same for all fish and frogs worldwide. For example the tapeworm Diphyllobothrium only appears in freshwater fish found mainly in temperate and subarctic regions. Are you saying Indonesian Garter Snakes are equipped to deal with this parasite?

Probably not, because they use mammals as a host, not reptiles. Though I imagine there could be an exception.

The other factor is how generalized the parasites host requirements are. Some are very very specific, others can infect just about anything.

There are very few, if any, people who have successfully breed North American treefrogs. It is very difficult (and far more work than keeping snakes).

I would argue that it is more likely that people just have not tried. Most ranids (and indeed snakes) just need to be placed in proximity to eachother and they will mate eventually. Hylids and toads are more particular, but provided they are not subject to Captive Stress (IE their environments are suitable and their breeding response is triggered) it will be some work, and take a lot of experimentation, but it could be well worth it. At least hyla cinerea will breed in polluted urban flood control canals and retention basins. If you are going to be able to breed any north american hylid, that is the one to try. Either that or pseudacris regilla which will breed in people's backyard swimming pools and has been introduced into Arizona of all places via plant nursuries and breeds in their plant-watering runoff.

Might it be more work than dealing with just the snakes? Sure. Which is why I prefaced the statement with "If you are up to it" implying that it was not an easy task. Me, I have too many snakes to not want to breed my own feeders, so I am going to try. If I fail, I have that bullfrog colony down in my lab to work with.

Do you have any references that document this? I've never heard of a wild snake that died from parasite overload. The "all the time" line is intriguing. That would imply that there's plenty of proof to show that this happens. Are there any books/papers that indicate this?

As a matter of fact, I do! Most stuff on host-parasite interactions in snakes has to do with captive collections (mostly cryptosporidium) that primarily have wild caught organisms (captive stress depresses immune function and Death from Parasites), but I did manage to find this little gem a while back. Moreover there is a lot of stuff in the garter snake literature which suggests parasite loads as a cause of mortality during overwintering. However the authors only looked at body condition and did not perform any histology or do a necropsy.

Mdsen, T., Ujvari, B., Olsson, M. 2005. Old Pythons Stay Fit; Effects of Haematozoan Infections on Life History Traits of a Large Tropical Predator. Oecologica, 142(3):407-412

Abstract: We document the impact of blood parasite infections caused by Hepatozoon sp. on water python (Liasis fuscus) life history traits such as growth rates, condition, reproductive output and survival. Individual snakes maintained similar among-year parasite loads. Hepatozoon infections affected python growth rate, i.e. snakes suffering from high infection levels exhibited significantly slower growth compared to individuals with low parasite loads. Our results suggest that the parasites also affected the pythons' nutritional status ( condition), as snakes with low condition scores suffered from higher parasite infection levels than snakes with high scores. Furthermore, our data suggest that parasitaemia may affect female reproductive output, as reproductive female pythons harboured lower parasite loads compared to non-reproductive adult females. High levels of parasite infections also affected juvenile python survival, as recaptured snakes harboured significantly lower parasiteparasite loads in larger/ older pythons were lower compared to younger snakes, suggesting that only snakes harbouring lower levels of parasitaemia were able to survive to old age. We suggest that a possible cause for the opposing results regarding parasite prevalence and host age may be due to different levels of extrinsic mortality rates and longevity. Long-lived organisms, such as water pythons, may invest relatively more into crucial self-maintenance functions such as parasite loads compared to non-recaptured yearling pythons. In our study area, water python have very few natural predators and, hence, experience low mortality rates and commonly reach an age of > 15 years. In contrast to results obtained in other studies, defence, compared to short-lived organisms.

[GradStudentLeper]

We have the American Grey Tree frogs in our small pool in our yard. This is the second year that they decided to make the pool their home and breeding ground. Raising them is easier said than done. Last year must have been a bad season for them, because out of the hundreds of tadpoles, we have 1 adult frog. We were able to get 7 or 8 others to frog stage but then lost them shortly afterward.

This year, we have witnessed many more frogs emerging from our pool. The season here has been cooler and rainer. Maybe that played a part? We didn't see any frogs leave the pool until October last year (the one we have now) and we still had tadpoles into November. We had to rescue what we could and bring them indoors because they were starting to freeze!

In the past week, we have seen probably 10 or so mature and venture off. I do not give them to my snakes, though they both live in the same territory. I actually did try the tadpoles (there are so many) but the snakes weren't interested anyways. After not seeing much of the frogs mature last season, I'm giving these guys a chance. I have other food to feed my babies, which they love.

In a backyard swimming pool they are resource limited (how much algea really grows in those?), in addition they have non-fish predators like dragonfly nymphs to deal with. Tadpoles are the... potato chips of aquatic systems. Their mortality rates are really high, we are talking about fractions of a percent survival rate.

If you want to maximize the number that survive, supplement their food and screen the pool to protect it from insect predators.

[Mommy2many]

We actually have started to feed them this year. There is some algae and we have also introduced the small trout my kids fished out of the stream. We have had a lot of rain and it is cooler, so I believe the algae is not as great as last summer.

They seemed to die off right at the frog stage.
What ever is going on is working for the frogs this year.

[tspuckler]

A staggering diversity of helminth parasites. A seach through the literature I just performed brings up 850 articles on parasite infections in mice.
Can you give me examples of specific articles where a snake acquired a parasite from a mouse? I understand that there are parasite infections in mice. What I asked was what sort of parasites pinkies have that have been proven to be transferred to snakes.

...and the snakes may or may not be able to respond to the ones that are opportunists...
This sounds like you really don't know if helminth parasites can be transferred to snakes via mice. Therefore it seems to me that you are taking your opinion and trying to pass it off as fact.

I am not talking about indonesian snakes now am I?
Maybe not, but I was. It's a simple question, can you answer it?

...what is pretty intellectually dishonest, even if it is a skill.
Trying to pass off your opinions as fact is "intellectually dishonest."

The other factor is how generalized the parasites host requirements are. Some are very very specific, others can infect just about anything.
So it sounds like your idea of raising frogs really doesn't have much value. If snakes can gets parasites from just about anything, why bother?

I would argue that it is more likely that people just have not tried.
Maybe, but for those who have, it's nearly impossible.

...it will be some work, and take a lot of experimentation, but it could be well worth it.
The seemingly casual suggestion you made about breeding your own frogs as a food source isn't all that realistic. If possible, it would take quite some time to do it, and in the meantime the snakes would die of starvation.

As a matter of fact, I do!
Your reference doesn't give any indication that the snakes DIED of parasites, just that they had them. This is yet another case of you trying to pass off your personal opinion as fact (aka being "intellectually dishonest").

[GradStudentLeper]

Can you give me examples of specific articles where a snake acquired a parasite from a mouse? I understand that there are parasite infections in mice. What I asked was what sort of parasites pinkies have that have been proven to be transferred to snakes

You cannot possibly be this obtuse. Rodent eating snakes in the wild get their intestinal parasites (and their other parasites) from a vector. This means rodents. I dont have a documented case of it on hand, and I dont need one because I made a point of NOT doing what you consistently accuse me of doing (presumably because you dont actually read my posts, as I will show in a moment) by couching everything in terms of probability, and simple logic. Here is the logic-train for you.

Rodent eating snakes get their intestinal parasites from a vector, typically what they eat
Rodent eating snakes eat rodents
Therefore it stands to reason that rodent eating snakes contract intestinal parasites from rodents.

commercially raised rodents have been documented to be infected with parasites.
commercially raised rodents live under conditions ripe for the spread of disease among and within colonies
Therefore it stands to reason that commercially raised rodents are typically infected with parasites.

Combine the two.

Rodent eating snakes contract intestinal parasites from rodents.
Commercially raised rodents are typically infected with parasites.
Therefore it stands to reason that captive rodent eating snakes contract intestinal parasites from commercially raised rodents.

If you would like a step by step playback of my posts, I can do that, in which I couch the possibility for host jumps and evolutionary resistance to the parasite in terms of probability, thus not passing off anything as fact but as a likelyhood heuristic.

This sounds like you really don't know if helminth parasites can be transferred to snakes via mice. Therefore it seems to me that you are taking your opinion and trying to pass it off as fact.

You just contradicted yourself. I cannot do both at once. Indicating I am not sure of something is mutually exclusive with passing off opinion as fact. Using the words "X May or may not be able to do Y" is about as far from "X can do Y" as a statement of fact that you can get.

Here is what the facts are (if you want a book on this, I would suggest picking up a book and taking a refresher course on evolution, then a text on behavioral ecology; particularly predator prey interactions of which host-parasite interactions are a subset)

A rodent eating snake will be equipped (in evolutionary terms) for dealing with rodent parasites that it DOES contract. While a non-rodent eating snake will not have these immune mechanisms because they are costly to keep up. Defenses against predators and parasites are costly to maintain either in resource costs (it takes energy to manufacture proteins and immune cells) or opportunity costs (these proteins and cells are specialized for one or a few pathogens/parasites, and because energy supply is limited, synthesizing a compliment of one subset prevents the synthesis of another subset by definition). Pathogens have no such limitation because the pathways they use to access cells, or invade the digestive/circulatory/respiratory systems are more conserved across host types making a wide host range, or host jumping easy.


Here is where I get into what I will call "Professional speculation"

Therefore, the best way to mitigate risk in your animals is to NOT feed them something that they would not otherwise eat in the wild, so you do not expose them to novel pathogens and parasites. It is the same reason you shouldnt introduce new predators (like monitor lizards and burmese pythons) into a novel ecosystem, the scale is just smaller. Individual organisms are themselves ecosystems for parasites and pathogenic microbes.

Maybe not, but I was. It's a simple question, can you answer it?

Already did, but you dont read my posts.

Maybe, but for those who have, it's nearly impossible.

Do you have a reference for this? Including species and methods used to attempt propagation?

The seemingly casual suggestion you made about breeding your own frogs as a food source isn't all that realistic. If possible, it would take quite some time to do it, and in the meantime the snakes would die of starvation.

Gee, good thing I didnt suggest starving snakes in the meantime, and in fact recommended just collecting tadpoles of common species now didnt I?

Your reference doesn't give any indication that the snakes DIED of parasites, just that they had them. This is yet another case of you trying to pass off your personal opinion as fact (aka being "intellectually dishonest").

And this is another case of you being either unable or unwilling to read:

Furthermore, our data suggest that parasitaemia may affect female reproductive output, as reproductive female pythons harboured lower parasite loads compared to non-reproductive adult females. High levels of parasite infections also affected juvenile python survival, as recaptured snakes harboured significantly lower parasite loads. Parasite loads in larger/ older pythons were lower compared to younger snakes, suggesting that only snakes harbouring lower levels of parasitaemia were able to survive to old age.

One basically needs to look at the effects of parasites on a population basis to find mortality rates of snakes in the wild from parasites. Which is exactly what this guy did. If you would like, I can give you the results section of the paper, and maybe snippets of the discussion, seeing as I have access to the full paper.

Now, here is what you can do for me. In addition to the reference, you can remove your head from your rectum. Calmly stand up, then get on one foot and insert the other foot into your mouth.

[GradStudentLeper]

So it sounds like your idea of raising frogs really doesn't have much value. If snakes can gets parasites from just about anything, why bother?

Because their resistance to the harmful effects of the parasites, and their ability to fight them off varies with their exposure to said parasites through evolutionary time. Additionally if you remove the eggs as soon as they are laid, and keep out certain intermediary hosts (like snails) you can reduce the number and type of parasites that infect your animals(example: you can remove certain flukes this way). Unlike mice, where their parasites were there starting the moment the colony line was started thousands of generations ago, and keep getting spread parent to offspring via close proximity. Why? because mammal vectors are insects and other individual mammals (depending on the parasite) and they are much harder to exclude, particularly in non-lab rodent colonies (actually lab rodents are not much better...)

[tspuckler]

You cannot possibly be this obtuse. Rodent eating snakes in the wild get their intestinal parasites (and their other parasites) from a vector. This means rodents. I dont have a documented case of it on hand...
This does not address my initial question: You're talking about wild snakes, I specifically asked about captive snakes being fed lab mice.

Therefore it stands to reason that rodent eating snakes contract intestinal parasites from rodents.
I asked for documented proof - it sounds like you do not have it. Rather, it appears you are once again trying to pass off your opinions as facts. Jumping to conclusions is not the same thing as being factually accurate.

Here is where I get into what I will call "Professional speculation"
Indeed. And speculation is not fact - it's a guess.

Do you have a reference for this? Including species and methods used to attempt propagation?
Yes, see Le Ann's post for more information.

in fact recommended just collecting tadpoles of common species now didnt I?
Yes, but that's not what I was referring to, which was: "That said, if you are up to it, it is better to grab a few adults and breed them in captivity than collect them from the wild en masse."

High levels of parasite infections also affected juvenile python survival, as recaptured snakes harboured significantly lower parasite loads.
"Affecting" survival is not the same as killing. You have made a false statement about "Snakes in the wild die from their parasite loads all the time." Yes, parasites can contribute to survival, as can many other factors - but you have no evidence whatsoever that parasites all by their lonesome, kill wild snakes - especially with the frequency of that "all the time" nonsense you've stated. Maybe you should stick to subject matter that you know (whatever that may be).

Calmly stand up, then get on one foot and insert the other foot into your mouth.
Sounds like you're making a personal insult. You seem to do that everytime someone calls you out on the false claims you repeatedly make on this forum. Can you just stick to the facts?

Unlike mice, where their parasites were there starting the moment the colony line was started thousands of generations ago, and keep getting spread parent to offspring via close proximity.
Yes, but if you can't prove mice have parasites that are transferrable to captive snakes (especially lab mice) why not simply feed your snakes rodents, instead of the hassle of raising frogs (if it's even possible) and STILL having the possibility that the captive-raised frogs will have parasites that are transferrable to the snake.

What school do you go to?

[k2l3d4]

O)K....... now that you two are hopefully done arguing in circles on my post and neither one of you has answered my question........ I have a green checkered garter that I purchase from Petco 08 and I knwo that the same Petco carries green tree frogs......Snake has not eaten in over a month....... would it be safe for me to feed a green treee frog that i purchase from Petco to feed to my snake that I purchased from the same store.... I am just looking at hopefully enticing him back into eating again and if that will do the trick I need to know that it will be safe, and then hopefully he will go back to eating f/t pinkies....

[tspuckler]

would it be safe for me to feed a green treee frog that i purchase from Petco to feed to my snake that I purchased from the same store

The Green Treefrogs sold at PetCo are wild-caught. Wild-caught frogs often carry parasites. So "safe" is a relative word. Do you feel lucky?

Sometimes snakes get "hooked" on a particular food item. If that turns out to be the case, do you intend to feed it $5 or $6 frogs (or whatever PetCo charges) for its entire life? Do you wish to support the collection of wild-caught frogs for the pet (or in this case, food) trade?

[k2l3d4]

I have heard about the imprinting on the prey items,,... something like gerbails with ball pythons. that is why my BP's only get f/t mice and when they get older f/t rats. I just did not think something would be like that with garters since they eat a more varied types of prey. So what would be your suggestion then in regards to an 08 checkered garter that has not eaten in about a month? He refuses to eat nightcrawlers, only partially will eat feeder fish, use to love pinkies ..... what else can i try to get him to eat?