Califor. King Snake

[Stefan-A]

Can we simply drop this one and start anew?

If it's okay with the other participants, sure.

[adamanteus]

Ok, Group Hug

Yeah, I know, not going to happen... BUT I would hate to lose the knowledge of any of you... I don't want to track anyone down on another forum... I want to come here, to our comfy little home, and read what each of you has to offer, to share, to teach. Can we simply drop this one and start anew?

Good call, Tami!
I don't think anyone was actually going to leave the forum over this one, but yes... let's change the subject.
To be honest, I think it's a good thing to 'clear the air' sometimes. If anyone has dispute with me or the things I say, I would like to hear about it. If i think I'm right I'll argue, but if I'm wrong I will admit as much.....
I was wrong once..... see, I thought I was mistaken but it turned out that I wasn't!

[tyflier]

Listen...Opinions often get heated. This hobby is full of passion, if nothing else. Whenever people with equal passion have a disagreement...it's bound to happen.

Obviously, Stefan-A and I aren't going to agree on this one. He's made his points, I've made mine...it's really fair enough on either side to walk away from the whole thing.

I always try to argue the points and not the person, and I'm usually succesful. If I've taken anything out of context, I apologise, and am ready to move on to both Adamanteus and Stefan-A.

Water under the bridge...

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Wow! That was just great! Even I felt the adrenalin!

Now that this thread seems to be embracing calmer shores, I guess I'll throw in a few pennies.

First, I agree that novices should not take in unfamiliar animals, however any good-hearted attempt to save an animal from a miserable existence supercedes that continued existence and usually implies the rescuer may take the extra steps to provide it with a better existence (...not always...). guidofatherof5, I commend your efforts and your willingness to learn.

I only have about 200 posts to my name on this forum, but in that time I have come to respect James and Stefan for their very informative and often direct posts. It's important that we express our opinions! It's vital that we should sometimes show our passion regarding a topic, for if we don't, then we should not be in the hobby. For those who naturally don't get all heated, peacemakers are always welcome.

I do have to say I agree with both Stefan and tyflier (how do I get real names? Is it Chris?) on varying issues.

I keep 2 Cali Kings, a Mexican Black, a Pacific Gopher and a variety of Corns, and I have to say their basic care is the same (feeding, temps, humidity, etc), and they are all healthy. Where general care is concerned, these 3 genuses have similar requirements. I will not venture further with percentages regarding the care of other colubrids. Thamnophis care, for instance, unless you are dealing with species hooked on mice (okay maybe not), have a completely different care requirements.

It is here that I must mention my own bias... But first I have to ask: tyflier, are your 50 snakes all in @ least 20 gallon enclosures, or are they large breeder boxes? I don't want to assume. I have been having big issues with corn and king breeders as of late (myself included), and have been downsizing my own operations due to the fact that there are too many of these snakes on the market already and.... (very important question) I am perplexed by the question "What is quality of life?" What is basic care? And what is specific care? Shouldn't all captive care be specific? Shouldn't all animals, if kept captive, be entitled to the best quality of life. I often wonder at what point do some of us herp fanatics say "No, no more new snakes!" I found that the more I acquired, the less I appreciated each specimen, or at least did not have the time. I personally believe that if we choose to take in an animal, "micro-managing" is essential, no matter how easy or difficult the species. Anything else, in my heart, is negligence. The animal is captive; there it has no choice. Is basic care enough? Enough for whom? Our schedule? These are ethical issues that PETA loves to use against the hobby. Unfortunately, it's often amateurs or the blatantly ignorant whose mistakes add fuel to their fire.

I commend all of you who posted on this thread; I am glad that the "opinionators" of this thread (Bless you! though I am not religious) stopped adding more bricks to the apparent wall that was materializing. This has been and still is a wonderful forum where both amateurs and professionals can communicate. I, myself, often post threads that are a bit more scientific than many of the general threads. I often assert my opinions. I don't believe I am an arrogant person. Perceptions however are a ------! We all come from different walks of life; we are all at different stages of learning. So, we are often apt towards some tunnel vision, no matter how minute. Let us be reminded of that and be correspondingly civil.

Steve

[adamanteus]

Steve...... ever the diplomat! Nice post.

[drache]

Steve - thanks for that post
I kind of stood back during the heated part of the debate, and noted that all parties had good points
there is something you brought up that I've been thinking about a lot recently

I am perplexed by the question "What is quality of life?" What is basic care? And what is specific care? Shouldn't all captive care be specific? Shouldn't all animals, if kept captive, be entitled to the best quality of life. I often wonder at what point do some of us herp fanatics say "No, no more new snakes!" I found that the more I acquired, the less I appreciated each specimen, or at least did not have the time. I personally believe that if we choose to take in an animal, "micro-managing" is essential, no matter how easy or difficult the species. Anything else, in my heart, is negligence. The animal is captive; there it has no choice.

I find that as much as I would like more snakes - specific ones - I am at the point where I have enough for both their and my good somehow
perhaps the snakes don't care if I never look at them as long as their needs are met, but what's the point? after a while I don't like taking care of animals I don't get to spend time with.
when I foster animals for the rescue, it's different
I know I'm not keeping them and I want to heap extra good care of them so they get a good shot at being adopted, and yes - sometimes the space they get is less than what they ideally should have, but always more than they're been accustomed to to and more than what the rescue can offer them, because they're full
sometimes giving an animal a safe space to recover is the best we can do, even if we know that it's not quite enough - I mean, if they had you locked in a latrine without fresh water for a few years or months, even a small clean room with fresh water would be an improvement while you're waiting for your garden apartment

[tyflier]

Steven-

I do my absolute best to assure quality of care for my animals. They are all kept in appropriately sized enclosures, and between myself, my daughter, my girlfriend, and my friends...they all get held and loved on. My snakes are not simply breeders, they are pets. I have many in display enclosures and many in racks, but they are all well cared for. And they are all afforded opportunities for stimulation and excercise, handling, and "hanging out", at least as much as they care to.

My snakes are used for breeding purposes, but they are pets above anything else...