Garter vs. Corn

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I'm definitely a biased when it comes to corn snakes.

It's not because I have anything (not much anyway, just a few minor things I already mentioned) against the snake, but because of its status around here. People churn out corns like there's no tomorrow and if a beginner turns up somewhere, that's the only species they've ever heard about and it's the only one anybody ever recommends, as if there weren't other species that are as user friendly as corns. Whether or not there are, is not even interesting; Corns are the only snakes that are consistently available and therefore there's no point in even considering anything else.

I know I'm not the only one around here who's getting sick of corns. Some of the members on a local forum even went as far as to bleep the name "corn snake" whenever they had to use it. I didn't really understand that negative attitude then, but I think I'm starting to.

But this is just a little local phenomenon.

Stefan, I to an extent, feel this way, but for me, it's not anger towards the snakes, rather, towards the people that mass breed them the way they do. I can't possibly take a stance such as "i hate cornsnakes" because it's not the snake's fault they are so darned easy to breed and care for. I do understand where you are coming from and just how fristrating it is. I get pretty ticked walking past table after table of tiny deli cups stacked to the ceiling with baby corns, ball pythons, and BCI's. Even if they are the most common, I love cornsnakes for what they are.. a hardy, pretty snake that is easy to care for and generally does not bite the hand that feeds. Having said that, I am highly an advocate of NORMAL corns, which I beleive to be the most beautiful of all, breeders can have their albino candy cane striped motley caramel anery snowflake blizzard chocolate swirl flavored corns.... show me the okeetee's and the miami's! Don't get me wrong.. the genetics are fascinating and WELL worth studying and breeding out, but they are not for me. I am happy with my okeetee's and my anery

I do recognize that there are other snakes that are just as easy as corns... but since corns are readily available... they take the cake. There are a lot of rat snakes that are easy to keep, and lots of others... but they are just not as readily available. Cali kings are right there with corns, but the thing with them is... they often decide that your hand is dinner and I have pried many a king snake off my hand... and many people simply take that the wrong way... that the snake is mean. The fact is that kingsnakes often think with their tummies first

And by writing all this, I am not putting garter snakes down in any way, I mean hell, I specialize heavily in them and love them more than any other snake times infinity. BUT... I simply do not feel that they make the best choice for a starter snake. They are a decent one, but seeing as they are so demanding food wise, and their young are so small and fragile (not to mention the size of their litters and the fact that they can surprise unknowing owners with a litter of babies before they have any knowledge and any time to prepare), and the fact that they are so energetic just makes them less than the optimal choice for the first snake. Do I think garter snakes are the best snakes to own? Yes. Do I think they are the best beginner snake? nope.

[Stefan-A]

Stefan, I to an extent, feel this way, but for me, it's not anger towards the snakes, rather, towards the people that mass breed them the way they do. I can't possibly take a stance such as "i hate cornsnakes"

I don't hate the snakes, I hate the situation.

Having said that, I am highly an advocate of NORMAL corns, which I beleive to be the most beautiful of all, breeders can have their albino candy cane striped motley caramel anery snowflake blizzard chocolate swirl flavored corns.... show me the okeetee's and the miami's! Don't get me wrong.. the genetics are fascinating and WELL worth studying and breeding out, but they are not for me. I am happy with my okeetee's and my anery

I would actually consider anery corns "normal" as well, because they are supposedly relatively common in the wild. But we seem to have pretty much the same taste in corns apart from that one. I think normals and miamis are the best looking ones.

[Cobra Kai]

And by writing all this, I am not putting garter snakes down in any way, I mean hell, I specialize heavily in them and love them more than any other snake times infinity. BUT... I simply do not feel that they make the best choice for a starter snake. They are a decent one, but seeing as they are so demanding food wise, and their young are so small and fragile (not to mention the size of their litters and the fact that they can surprise unknowing owners with a litter of babies before they have any knowledge and any time to prepare), and the fact that they are so energetic just makes them less than the optimal choice for the first snake. Do I think garter snakes are the best snakes to own? Yes. Do I think they are the best beginner snake? nope.

Thanks for breaking it down like a fraction and I'm buyin' what you're sellin'.

Ok...do you kids mind if I throw another one into the mix? What do you think about Lampropeltis triangulum triangulum? Are they good beginner snakes?

[Garter_Gertie]

(clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap, clap... hands now hurt)

Stefan, I to an extent, feel this way, but for me, it's not anger towards the snakes, rather, towards the people that mass breed them the way they do. I can't possibly take a stance such as "i hate cornsnakes" because it's not the snake's fault they are so darned easy to breed and care for. I do understand where you are coming from and just how fristrating it is. I get pretty ticked walking past table after table of tiny deli cups stacked to the ceiling with baby corns, ball pythons, and BCI's. Even if they are the most common, I love cornsnakes for what they are.. a hardy, pretty snake that is easy to care for and generally does not bite the hand that feeds. Having said that, I am highly an advocate of NORMAL corns, which I beleive to be the most beautiful of all, breeders can have their albino candy cane striped motley caramel anery snowflake blizzard chocolate swirl flavored corns.... show me the okeetee's and the miami's! Don't get me wrong.. the genetics are fascinating and WELL worth studying and breeding out, but they are not for me. I am happy with my okeetee's and my anery

I do recognize that there are other snakes that are just as easy as corns... but since corns are readily available... they take the cake. There are a lot of rat snakes that are easy to keep, and lots of others... but they are just not as readily available. Cali kings are right there with corns, but the thing with them is... they often decide that your hand is dinner and I have pried many a king snake off my hand... and many people simply take that the wrong way... that the snake is mean. The fact is that kingsnakes often think with their tummies first

And by writing all this, I am not putting garter snakes down in any way, I mean hell, I specialize heavily in them and love them more than any other snake times infinity. BUT... I simply do not feel that they make the best choice for a starter snake. They are a decent one, but seeing as they are so demanding food wise, and their young are so small and fragile (not to mention the size of their litters and the fact that they can surprise unknowing owners with a litter of babies before they have any knowledge and any time to prepare), and the fact that they are so energetic just makes them less than the optimal choice for the first snake. Do I think garter snakes are the best snakes to own? Yes. Do I think they are the best beginner snake? nope.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I have a pair of t. triangulum.... and well technically by the books, these are kingsnakes. I have heard babies are hard to start... I acquired my pair this year... I caught them as hatchlings! They are doing great for me.. sucking down f/t pinkies... but they are quite shy, I don't ever seen them and they don't really care to see me either!

[tyflier]

Thanks for breaking it down like a fraction and I'm buyin' what you're sellin'.

Ok...do you kids mind if I throw another one into the mix? What do you think about Lampropeltis triangulum triangulum? Are they good beginner snakes?

Eastern Milks can be picky eaters, but if you get captive bred from a reputable breeder, you shouldn't have any problems. Being in the Kingsnake genus, they are just as easy to care for as corns, but lack some of the aggressive feeding responses of other kingsnakes in the genus, like Floridas(my personal faves...but not a beginner snake, IMO) and Calis(also not a great introduction...unless you enjoy being tasted occasionally).

And y'all need to back of the cornsnakes. It ain't their fault that too many people without a clue breed them. And it ain't their fault that the potential for morphs is simply staggering...second to none, in fact. With more single recessive morphs, it's no small wonder everyone and their brother wants to breed the next new combination...heck, I breed corns, and I don't breed normals...I breed morphs. I also HIGHLY recommend them as the best beginner snake, bar none. For reasons that have probably been mentioned a dozen times in this topic(I haven't actually read the whole thing...I just noticed how long it was getting and decided to check it out...), they are simply the easiest snakes to learn with...they forgive you for your mistakes, and they are relatively inexpensive...

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Eastern Milks can be picky eaters, but if you get captive bred from a reputable breeder, you shouldn't have any problems. Being in the Kingsnake genus, they are just as easy to care for as corns, but lack some of the aggressive feeding responses of other kingsnakes in the genus, like Floridas(my personal faves...but not a beginner snake, IMO) and Calis(also not a great introduction...unless you enjoy being tasted occasionally).

And y'all need to back of the cornsnakes. It ain't their fault that too many people without a clue breed them. And it ain't their fault that the potential for morphs is simply staggering...second to none, in fact. With more single recessive morphs, it's no small wonder everyone and their brother wants to breed the next new combination...heck, I breed corns, and I don't breed normals...I breed morphs. I also HIGHLY recommend them as the best beginner snake, bar none. For reasons that have probably been mentioned a dozen times in this topic(I haven't actually read the whole thing...I just noticed how long it was getting and decided to check it out...), they are simply the easiest snakes to learn with...they forgive you for your mistakes, and they are relatively inexpensive...

well said, Chris! I wholeheartedly agree! was not saying I don't like the morphs out there.... was just kinda stating my prefernece for normals

but lack some of the aggressive feeding responses of other kingsnakes in the genus

my female is a good example of this... but my male is worse than most cali kings! He attacks his dead pinky and re-kills it!

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

haha, in response to the discussion converning corns at petco... you can get them as babies at shows for about $17 now. That includes amels, anery's, snows and all of the more common morphs now. That is how much I sold the two I had at the show for and even at that price... they sat there almost all day! It is getting to the point where too many cornsnakes are being bred and no one can sell them all! I'm not referring to the higher end stuff, but your normals (most beuatiful corns of all), amels, candy cane anerythristic zig zagged whoseewhatsit are getting close to the breaking point. I love my corns and I will always have a few but I am not gonna get into breeding them heavily because I fear that cornsnakes are becoming the next iguana of the reptiles as pets trade... they're everywhere, they're ridiculously cheap and it's very hard to find GOOD homes for them anymore, so a lot of wholesalers are selling them off cheap which in return will cause many people to see "cheap snakes" and impulse buy for their kids, and the snakes will suffer for it. I was very lucky to place the two babies I had for sale at the show for $17 in good loving homes... and they still have a little sister that needs a home too! I saw quiet a few vendors go home that day with 99% of the corns they took with them!

Having said all of that.... I DO support owning cornsnakes and I wholeheartedly beleive that they are the number 1, supreme, absoultey BEST starter snakes. Many people will say ball pythons... which is definitely not true seeing as they are much more needy and finicky. I would say garters except for the fact that baby garters are tiny and very fragile, and garters are much higher maintenance than cornsnakes with their needing to eat a few times a week and being so active where as corns being fossorial and having a slower digestive tract are usually the better of the two choices for the first ever pet snake. Corns will tolerate beginner mistakes more easily than most garters.

Here's an that I wrote about 2 years ago for reptastic concerning cornsnakes... it was well accepted over there!

Yes, 5 gold stars to SnakeLovinBabe! I couldn't agree with you more!

And thank you Stefan-A for clarifying that you "hate" the situation, and not the snake! (I was beginning to wonder...) Perhaps herp groups in Europe could start working on a "slow down on the corns" program! The U.S. corn phenomona is beyond over-saturated.

I was once overwhelmed by the wondrous beauty of corn genetics (it's still wondrous! , but after breeding a few triple recessive combos I quickly realized a difference in specimen quality; I never had runts or vertebral damage in my normal morph clutches. Snakie, my normal "mutt" of 12+ yrs. was the studd-muffin to many a healthy clutch, and whose progeny - being only normal or amel, may I say, 2 years ago were no problem to sell. Now I can't even move this year's Normal Motley (het Hypo A, het Anery A, het Amel) clutch. I love my corns; they are the best-behaved for my presentations at the local schools and our natural history museum. My eventual down-sizing of corns (they will all find good homes!) will (somewhat seemingly contrary to the ever-so faint biases heard) indeed lend space to an increase in garters and/or other local natives. I have learned corns... I am ready to move on.

I could go on and on about corn genetics, but we've weakened Pantherophis guttatus genetically in our inbred quest for ever-new flavors and colors. So, I ask what's real? I too have checked myself and have better begun to appreciate the "normals". Long tediousness redundantly set straight... CORNS ARE THE BEGINNER SNAKE. Remember this started with Cobra Kai's asking what's good for a 2 and a 5 year old! I would not regularly subject any Thamnophis to that age, no matter how well-behaved.

In regards to Lampropeltis. Milks and Common Kings can be fairly manageable, but some, like my 2 CA Kings can be fussy and irregular eaters ("Let's fast for 2 months and then eat like a pig for 2 weeks!" or "Let me have one baby rat now, let me spit out the next 2, then feed me nothing but mice for 3 months, and then I'll fast for a while, but I won't eat any mice the next time I eat until I'm sick of rats again..." Don't feed kings other herps unless you want to risk that being the only thing they eat from then on..), great to handle (all mellow-like) one day, and then all pissy and bitey the next! [Does my use of parenthesis bug you all? Let me know! They seem to be attacking me!

Lest I continue to ramble... until....

Steven

Oh, Stefan-A, I would only consider an anery corn to be "normal' due to the fact that this (still) recessive morph does not really impede its ability to camouflage itself. Albinos are usually easy pickings! I would not (of course just being technical) use "normal" if there were even a recessive subpopulation completely separated from THE normal corn wild-type; this might likely imply a sub-specific population and sister clade, but then our application of terminology would be out of context. We must remember that the debate is still on as to the ssp. or species status of both western groups (Emory's or Great Plains Rat and the Intermountain Rat Snake) - these guys a basically anery, but that is the wild-type... if ya cross an Emory with a normal Corn ya get Chocolate! Rather unattractive snake! Not recessive anerythrism. Anyways... I love all you guyz's and galz's minds.

This is a fun forum. Sorry I don't always make the time to tune in!

[drache]

my experience with corns is limited, but I do have four kings, and since kings and milks are now pert of the discussion I thought I'd input
two of them are Cali kings, and although babies have shaken their tail at me, and rodent smell on my hand can induce a feeding response (biting), other than that they are very very manageable
I've only once had feeding problems with a king and that was after I had let him get way obese, so it can rightfully be considered a spontaneous diet - he simply wasn't hungry for a few months
just last week I noticed that two of my kings were getting a bit chubby and I need to reduce the feeding - so no - cant's say they're difficult eaters
two of my medium sized ones will eat on the couch while I clean their cage
one thing about kings though - I don't think they come in as many designer colours as corns, so if that's important, well . . .

[Cobra Kai]

Wow…this is a hot thread! Very thought out thorough answers. I really appreciate you letting me tap into your brains so I can learn from your experience. You guys & gals are a huge help.