wild garters cross breeding in the wild.

[kibakiba]

That post was going to be my last. But this one, now, is my last. I like talking to people with brains.

[chris-uk]

Science, as a rule, never proves anything. Gravity, evolution, etc. are all theories. A theory may have a lot of evidence to support it, but it can never be "proven." This is a basic "rule" of science.

There's a great many facts that have been proven by science. For example, science has proven that my unborn child is male, this has been done using ultrasound tests and a full chromosomal mapping. I wouldn't call the ultrasound proof because there is a risk of human error, however correct scientific method precludes the possibility of an error in the chromosomal mapping. There's a difference between science proving a fact and proving out a theorem.

Here's a three-way atratus cross (Santa Cruz, Oregon and Diablo Range Garter Snake) that I found last year.

Nice snake.

That snake was tested at the California Academy of Science - so that's why. It's not an arguement - it's a simple statement of fact.

Given your earlier statement that science never proves anything (as a rule), I'd be interested to know what tests were done at the California Academy of Science that makes the atratus specimen an exception to your rule. I do science (at least I claim to, I do have a medical genetics degree which tells me I used to do science) which makes me curious about the sort of tests that are done by professional herpetologists in institutions around the world.

[Stefan-A]

Never mentioned dogs.

I never said you did. It was just an example, like the one you gave.

Around here when two different species interbreed it's called a hybrid.

Yes.

When two subspecies interbreed in nature it's called an intergrade.

No. We're talking about two entirely different levels here. Subspecies x subspecies crosses (hybrids) happen on an individual level, intergradation happens on a population level.

Show us the proof then. That's the only way anyone will believe you. Why didn't you just add the 'test's done with the picture. You need proof before you go flapping your gums like some sort of snake genius.

That's a bit unnecessary, Chantel.

There's a great many facts that have been proven by science. For example, science has proven that my unborn child is male, this has been done using ultrasound tests and a full chromosomal mapping. I wouldn't call the ultrasound proof because there is a risk of human error, however correct scientific method precludes the possibility of an error in the chromosomal mapping. There's a difference between science proving a fact and proving out a theorem.

I think I agree with tspuckler on this one point. That's using the word "proof" a bit too loosely.

[chris-uk]

I think I agree with tspuckler on this one point. That's using the word "proof" a bit too loosely.

Really? I think my use of the word "proof" is fine

Definition of proof

noun (mass noun) : evidence or argument establishing a fact or the truth of a statement

In this case the tests conducted on my unborn child provide proof that he is, in fact, a "he".
Being pedantic, there is always doubt in any proof, but the level of proof required before we consider something proven should be proportional to the nature of the claim. I think in the case of sexing a baby a full chromosomal mapping is sufficient proof (only really trumped by doing the same test several times in different labs to further reduce the likelihood of a procedural error producing false results.

[Stefan-A]

Really? I think my use of the word "proof" is fine



In this case the tests conducted on my unborn child provide proof that he is, in fact, a "he".
Being pedantic, there is always doubt in any proof, but the level of proof required before we consider something proven should be proportional to the nature of the claim. I think in the case of sexing a baby a full chromosomal mapping is sufficient proof (only really trumped by doing the same test several times in different labs to further reduce the likelihood of a procedural error producing false results.

Scientific evidence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Problem of induction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[chris-uk]

Scientific evidence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Problem of induction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I always wonder whether you're agreeing or disagreeing when you just post links to other sources. Either way, some time in the next few weeks I will have a son, I know I will have a son because practical science has proven that this is the case. I'm not talking about philosophical thought experiments here, I'm talking about evidence that has a high enough probability of being correct that I will accept it as fact. Therefore science has proven something that I accept as fact and our doctors and genetic councillors accept. That is the crux of my original response, to question whether science can prove something.

Of course, if after 24 hours of labour Joseph turns up and is in fact a Josephine, I'll come home eat my keyboard and paint the blue walls of his nursery pink.

[Stefan-A]

I always wonder whether you're agreeing or disagreeing when you just post links to other sources.

Could be either one. Sometimes both. Sometimes neither. Sometimes, not spelling it out is a point in itself.

[SilasBannook]

Early posts spoke of the ranges of the different snake sub-species. I recently found this awesome site that mapped out the natural ranges of the snakes. Click on "search" then enter the species, i.e. Thamnophis Radix then click go then check the blank squares under none then click "map selected layers" and you will get a wonderful mapping of recorded areas on the world where the snakes have been documented. Check it out. It will help answer the question of overlapping ranges.

Map of Life

[guidofatherof5]

It is an awesome website.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/gart...-life-org.html

[ConcinusMan]

Did you have genetic testing done on your 2.2.3 Thamnophis ordinoides? If not, how can you truly know that's what they are?

it's quite simple. It's physically impossible for T. ordinoides to cross with any other species in their range. The reproductive parts are incompatible. Any more questions?