genetics

[Stefan-A]

I´m sure T.s.tetrataenia will be extinct soon in all known habitats, if the government isn´t able to modify their enviromental policy!

Short of relocating San Francisco, there's not much that can be done to keep them from going extinct in the near future.

[guidofatherof5]

I´m sure T.s.tetrataenia will be extinct soon in all known habitats, if the government isn´t able to modify their enviromental policy!

If our Government is their only hope, than they are probably doomed.

[mb90078]

I find it so hard to believe that nobody out there is breaking the law and breeding them. I understand that it's a completely niche pet, but it still boggles my mind that nobody is pumping fresh blood into the system (not that I am saying they should).

On another note, if the situation really doesn't improve at all, I would have to disagree with you guys about hybridizing. You might as well keep the genes out there, even if muddied, then for them to disappear altogether. The key is in representing them as they are, and not advertising them as purebreds.

[Stefan-A]

You might as well keep the genes out there, even if muddied, then for them to disappear altogether. The key is in representing them as they are, and not advertising them as purebreds.

For what purpose? And how would you know which gene is carried by which individual?

It's easier to just freeze a few samples.

[gregmonsta]

With the amount of care the breeders in mainland Europe have put into keeping studbooks/logging the groups sold from zoos/focusing on keeping breeding lines as far removed as possible - the important thing will always be to source snakes from different breeders. Hybridisation will throw up it's own issues and I don't think diluting the bloodline will achieve anything.
The most ethical thing would be to source different snakes from the established genepools/bloodlines.
Personally, I would source one from the Dutch bloodlines and one from Germany or the Austrian bloodline.
With the careless tendencies I've observed in Britain (ie - buying 1.1 to breed, people not knowing that garters come in species/sub-species as opposed to being morphs and hybridising without a second thought) I would only buy a British SanFran from a wholly reliable breeder (and only if the parent group was not a group of siblings).

[MasSalvaje]

Speaking on tetrataenia in the wild, I think we are looking at this problem from the view of pet owners and not what is necessarily the best for the tetrataenia population. Not to say that all points made are wrong on the matter but there are so many variables that frankly cannot be discussed here. It is not as simple as collecting a few specimens, getting them to breed, and then releasing them into the wild. The number one reason for population decline in the SanFran is habitat loss, until that problem is fixed (very unlikely), captive breeding would be uneffective. It doesn't do any good to keep captive tetrataenia to pump into the wild population if there is no where to put them. Moreover creating captive populations could possibly lead to even further drastic bottlenecking in the gene pool, making them more susceptible to declines in other areas in addition to the habitat loss. We are use to pairing off our snakes which is fine for the pet trade but in the wild a female will breed with multiple males every year and can use any or all of the males sperm to fertilize. That is a much more effective way of gene dispersal than any of us could achieve in captivity and exactly what the small population needs at this time to stay as strong as possible.

We shouldn't act on the matter just to say we are doing something. We need to make sure we are doing what is the very best for the species otherwise we might as well just do as Stefan said and freeze a few to use in the future.

-Thomas

[mustang]

i am doing my sci fair project over bp genetics ill either go back to garters or the venom project that got aproved but shut down by a&m (i have a friend whom owns venomous snakes now)

[zooplan]

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/gene...ght=sharp+park

[infernalis]

I'd tend to believe that considering the tiny piece of real estate that is left, that the gene pool is already weakening in the wild....

[ConcinusMan]

If San Francisco Garter Snakes are not grown and bred clean, they´ll lose any opportunity to refresh the natural populations later.

I´m sure T.s.tetrataenia will be extinct soon in all known habitats, if the government isn´t able to modify their enviromental policy!

CB San Fransisco garters will never be used to refresh natural populations anyway. The problem is, the remaining habitat can only support the snakes that are currently there. That is why there are no CB breeding projects to "save" the species. Adding more snakes will do more harm than good. The only way to increase their population would be to preserve current habitat and to restore historic habitat.

Of the populations that still exist, and are protected, their greatest threat is the water. The land is already off limits to development for many of the snakes, but they are already having problems with runoff from developed areas fouling up the water. One little screw up, one little disastrous spill and it could spell the end for them. Wouldn't break land developers hearts one bit I'm sure. In fact, I wouldn't put it past a few of them, to purposely sabotage the species.

Even for inbred struggling captive populations, introducing hybrids is the worst thing you can possibly do. If you do that to save them you are defeating the purpose since they will no longer be S.F. garters. They will be hybrids.