Bite reaction

[Mike Spencer]

I was once curious about ringnecks (Diadophis punctatus) toxicity too. During a particularly wet year (spring and early summer) in San Diego, they could be found in great numbers under leaves and other natural debris, on lightly forested hillsides. None of them exceeded 6 inches in length and were slow to bite. However, if severely provoked (asking to get bit) they would grab ahold and chew. I purposely allowed them to break the skin if they could. Twice I achieved that. Broken skin, and saliva on and in the wound. Still, no reaction at all and yet I keep hearing about ringnecks having enlarged rear teeth and mildly toxic saliva. Never had a reaction to anything but a garter, gopher, or king. All were defensive bites, all were wild-caught.

EDIT: with the exception of a few enormous Southern alligator lizards. they can be viscous. bites are always painful due to their vice grip, but sometimes, I'd get a histamine reaction from them too.

I've been wondering about Diadophis venom for a while too. I caught over 50 this spring up to 16 inches or so and one HUGE adult that measured 26 inches (the largest recorded D. p. amibilis I believe is 30 inches) that I tried persistently to get it to bite. It wouldn't and I didn't want to keep that old of a snake in case I stressed it out or anything, but I did let a 12 inch female chew on the spot between my thumb and index finger for a few, but even that snake, in that spot, was too small to get its rear 'fangs' into my hand.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, well that's not really necessary if it can break the skin and get saliva in there, that's all that really matters since those aren't real fangs. I did manage that, but no reaction. These were the San Diego variety, ssp similis. They don't really get any larger than perhaps 12 inches (most are under 8 inches) and are definitely a bit different than those found in other parts of CA or the Pacific Northwest. Could be some populations are more toxic than others(?)

[drache]

Could be some populations are more toxic than others(?)

that would be my assumption
I have even found differences in mosquitoes from different canyons in a place in So. Cal. I used to live at, so my guess is that if there is toxicity, there will be variation

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I am positive that venoms can vary from location to location.

In SoCal there are isolated populations of Southern Pacific Rattlesnakes whose venom evolution is off the chart. Some groups have more myotoxins and neurotoxins than others. Arizona's rattler populations are also suspect. Both CA and AZ have had cases where Crofab (anti-venin) almost wasn't enough to combat the new strains.

Here in the Northwest we also have varied populations of newts and common garters that have unique co-evolutionary toxins and immunities. Interestingly, in some spots common garters have a low immunity to the toxic effects of eating newts; concurrently these newts tend to be less toxic (no need to produce more toxins if the snakes can't deal with it in the first place). In some areas however, garters have evolved a high level of immunity and do survive eating newts; concurrently these newts are usually highly toxic. It's an arms race, and there are trade-offs. Newts that produce more defensive toxins produce fewer eggs. Garters that have a high immunity move slower than those with low immunity. So, if you're a resistant garter who can supplement your diet with newts, you have to sacrifice speed (probably because newts toxin is a type of neurotoxin similar to that of the puffer fish) to do so, thus the snake with a tummy full of newts is less likely to evade a hungry heron!

[confused]

That might explain the slightly brain damaged garter I found. Lots of newts around, like hundreds, and was wondering what was in the poop where I found her, was not earthworms or frogs, and she didn't eat slugs......

[guidofatherof5]

This morning I went down to the snake room to get their lights on and check on everyone.
I opened up the adult T.s.parietalis (Red Sided garter) enclosure and I was greeted by the big girls as they wanted some breakfast. After a few moment they realized it was just a social call and settled down. It was then I felt a bite on the under-side of my forearm.
When I looked I saw a full mouth bite going on. She was determined to eat at least part of my arm. She tugged, pulled and chewed for about 30 seconds then released.
All I could do was laugh at her because she barely broke the skin and at the time I didn't even see any bleeding.
I went about my business and a few moments later noticed a nice bite pattern of blood. I wiped it off with a paper towel and forgot about it.
5 minutes later I felt and intense itching and saw that the bite site had swollen up.
This photo was taken 20 minutes after the incident and clearly shows the reaction to the bite. It's now 50 minutes after the bite and the swelling has blended into a larger area but the itching is gone.
I'm guessing this is probably a case of envenomation. Nice going duvernoy's gland
Duvernoy's gland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/gene...noy-gland.html
Thoughts please.

[kerensa]

well I think you're correct that you're having a reaction to the bite. The girls obviously want their breakfast now...

[mikem]

I know that working with venomous snakes can lead to allergies from exposure to their venom (on food, bedding, cages, tools, etc.).

[guidofatherof5]

Almost 2 hours since the bite and the swelling and much of the redness is gone.

[ProXimuS]

I wonder if it can be a developing allergy? I work with dogs, and have never had any allergies towards them. After working there for a few years, I started having skin (redness and itching) reactions to certain types of hair(Shar peis specifically, but also some Boxers, Great Danes, those types of hair...)

You can't be allergic to snakes though, Steve. Where will all the needy Raxixes go