Frogs?????

[Mommy2many]

We have tree froggies with all 4 legs now (and a tail) This is the only time they are green

[k2l3d4]

It is of course better to feed lab raised frogs. Thankfully there are biological supply companies that can ship tadpoles to your door in bulk...

There is?> Anyone have any experience with something like this.... and more information in this arena would be greatly apppreciated.

[KITKAT]

PLEASE don't feed frogs to your garters! Frogs are endangered in so many parts of the world that it is alarming, and they are not a healthy food for a caged animal (your snake).

The parasites in frogs do not all die during freezing, and feeding frogs will build up a parasite population in your snake. Wild snakes survive this because they are outdoors, and move from place to place, but in a viv, your snake eats and drinks where he poops. Thus, parasites build up in a captive snake to a level that will kill or seriously harm his health.

If you MUST feed frogs for some reason that I cannot imagine, please feed bullfrogs. At least you won't be endangering another native species (Bullfrogs are not native west of the Rockies, and can endanger native frogs there, also).

[jitami]

Kady... I haven't read the entire thread, but have a couple quick questions. Were they eating well before this hunger strike? How long were they eating consistently before this?

I'm asking because my two juveniles have been incredibly active the last couple days, but not interested in food. I'm thinking it's our unusually cool weather. I'm actually wondering if it's throwing them into early brumation mode. It hasn't even been a week since my guys have eaten, though, so not worried. Just finding their behaviour odd this week. It's 81 in their tank, so it's not like they're cold, but this weather has been really weird and perhaps they sense that?

[k2l3d4]

Kady... I haven't read the entire thread, but have a couple quick questions. Were they eating well before this hunger strike? How long were they eating consistently before this?

I'm asking because my two juveniles have been incredibly active the last couple days, but not interested in food. I'm thinking it's our unusually cool weather. I'm actually wondering if it's throwing them into early brumation mode. It hasn't even been a week since my guys have eaten, though, so not worried. Just finding their behaviour odd this week. It's 81 in their tank, so it's not like they're cold, but this weather has been really weird and perhaps they sense that?

They normally eat pinkie mice that you can get from Petco...(3 for $5)... and I switched them to rodentpro pinkies.... since i have switched then Hudinie has decided that he does not like the,m I guess. Normally they will eat four small pinkies every four days... now Little dude is eating 1-2 large pinkies one day a week... Rescue (whom is the one that Petco was starvign to death) has no issues eating Rodentpro pinkies , but Hudinie has only eaten 3 in the last four weeks..... And I am in the Bay Area, Cali... and it is very warm here and my apartment is definately warm. I have had little dude and hudinie for about a year now with no eating issues... until now.

[GradStudentLeper]

PLEASE don't feed frogs to your garters! Frogs are endangered in so many parts of the world that it is alarming, and they are not a healthy food for a caged animal (your snake).

The parasites in frogs do not all die during freezing, and feeding frogs will build up a parasite population in your snake. Wild snakes survive this because they are outdoors, and move from place to place, but in a viv, your snake eats and drinks where he poops. Thus, parasites build up in a captive snake to a level that will kill or seriously harm his health.

If you MUST feed frogs for some reason that I cannot imagine, please feed bullfrogs. At least you won't be endangering another native species (Bullfrogs are not native west of the Rockies, and can endanger native frogs there, also).

There is so much wrong here, I dont know where to begin.

Yes, many frogs are threatened world wide. But not every frog. In fact, not even most frogs. Depending on where you live there are numerous species of frog which are not threatened and in fact are doing better than most other frogs because they are stress adapted and have the ability to deal with human disturbances.

Bullfrogs are in this group, as are some toads (woodhousii and terrestris for example), leopoard frogs, cuban treefrogs (non-native), green treefrogs, acris, and few others in the US alone. These are the sorts of frogs you find in suburban areas, and they are doing just fine. You need to be able to ID the frogs but if you can collect and raise their tadpoles, or breed them (green treefrogs and bullfrogs will readily breed in aquaria) feeding them to your snakes provided you dont have a few dozen. If you breed them you can even have a year round supply without damaging local populations.

Parasites are in everything you feed your snakes. I have addressed this before in this thread, but I will say it again. Your snakes have parasites. Everything you feed to your snakes has parasites. The question is, what type of parasites, how many, and can the snake deal with them?

The parasites that frogs have can be dealt with by the snake's immune system (the ones in pinkies may or may not meet this criteria). If the frogs had too many parasites, they would be dead, so an individual frog will not harm the frog too much. The parasites have to compete for resources in the snake, their populations wont get too high unless there is something wrong with your snake.

Here is a news flash. If your snakes actually get sick from the parasites they have, it is another problem. You are not feeding them well enough to give them the resources to deal with the parasites they already have, you are not providing them with a proper environment etc. Snakes do not survive in the wild because they are "outdoors" Snakes in the wild die from their parasite loads all the time. They die because they get too cold, and because they dont get enough food, or they catch another pathogen. The wild is not some magical clean place where everything is Happy Smiley Fun Times. You dont swim in a lot of the water that garter snakes live in because you will develop a lethal protazoan infection. The snakes deal with that every day. An adult garter has an ~10% chance of dying from predation, parasites, and starvation from year to year.

Provided you are doing everything right (which from the way you are ranting, you were not when your snakes died) you can cut that mortality rate dramatically while still giving them their natural food.

[k2l3d4]

So are you saying that you can feed green tree frogs to garters>?

[GradStudentLeper]

So are you saying that you can feed green tree frogs to garters>?

If you have a local population... yeah. In places whete H. cinerea and T. sirtalis are sympatric they do indeed feed on those frogs. They are not toxic, they are common and have healthy populations throughout their range.

That said, if you are up to it, it is better to grab a few adults and breed them in captivity than collect them from the wild en masse. Especially if you have a lot of snakes. You only want to collect a few. Alternatively you can collect tadpoles, and let them metamporphose in a ten gallon aquarium... get a couple hundred (and that wont scratch the population, even in urban environments) and you supply yourself for a year.

[tspuckler]

The parasites that frogs have can be dealt with by the snake's immune system (the ones in pinkies may or may not meet this criteria).
I am interested in knowing what sorts of parasites pinkies contain that can be transferred to snakes. Especially the lab mice that people tend to use to feed their reptiles. As far as immune systems dealing with parasites, isn't is possible that an Indonesian snake being fed fish from other countries may be getting parasites from those fish that it's completely unaccustomed to dealing with? Wouldn't the same be true when feeding an Indonesian snake American frogs?

Fish and frog parasites are not the same for all fish and frogs worldwide. For example the tapeworm Diphyllobothrium only appears in freshwater fish found mainly in temperate and subarctic regions. Are you saying Indonesian Garter Snakes are equipped to deal with this parasite?

That said, if you are up to it, it is better to grab a few adults and breed them in captivity than collect them from the wild en masse.
There are very few, if any, people who have successfully breed North American treefrogs. It is very difficult (and far more work than keeping snakes).

Snakes in the wild die from their parasite loads all the time.
Do you have any references that document this? I've never heard of a wild snake that died from parasite overload. The "all the time" line is intriguing. That would imply that there's plenty of proof to show that this happens. Are there any books/papers that indicate this?

[Mommy2many]

We have the American Grey Tree frogs in our small pool in our yard. This is the second year that they decided to make the pool their home and breeding ground. Raising them is easier said than done. Last year must have been a bad season for them, because out of the hundreds of tadpoles, we have 1 adult frog. We were able to get 7 or 8 others to frog stage but then lost them shortly afterward.

This year, we have witnessed many more frogs emerging from our pool. The season here has been cooler and rainer. Maybe that played a part? We didn't see any frogs leave the pool until October last year (the one we have now) and we still had tadpoles into November. We had to rescue what we could and bring them indoors because they were starting to freeze!

In the past week, we have seen probably 10 or so mature and venture off. I do not give them to my snakes, though they both live in the same territory. I actually did try the tadpoles (there are so many) but the snakes weren't interested anyways. After not seeing much of the frogs mature last season, I'm giving these guys a chance. I have other food to feed my babies, which they love.