Rack v. Vivarium?

[MasSalvaje]

I apologize if this thread is already out there and I realize this can be a touchy subject for some but which do you prefer and why?

For example: Is it better to use a Vivarium but have to keep multiples in the one cage or use a rack and house each one seperate?

I don't want this to turn into a Good v. Evil battle but I would like to know the pros and cons of both specifically regarding the housing of Thamnophis, I am not interested in reading comments on any other group.

Thanks everyone and keep it clean!

-Thomas

[Stefan-A]

We've discussed it a few times over the years, but we've never really done more than just scratch the surface.

Which is better, is in my opinion impossible to say, unless we're talking about very specific aspects of keeping snakes. Naturally, we can't know exactly what goes through the mind of the snake, so it's pretty pointless to speculate about which they like more. There's no real way to measure how satisfied they are with their housing solution, even though longevity and breeding success can be used as indicators. Then again, there's that pesky comparison between quantity and quality, which I feel applies to life as much as it does to anything else. Disregard that, it's my view, which has nothing to do with the animals. But I do think that when nothing points to the contrary, mimicing nature is the best solution.

I'd imagine racks are easier to maintain and you can house more snakes in a rack than in vivs, when they both require the same surface area. However, I like to observe my snakes. How many snakes I can keep or how many different morphs I can collect doesn't mean much to me, so I don't really have a need to house large quantities. I don't like the idea of providing the snakes with just absolute minimum of space and it may be good for their health to have a bit more space to move and especially to have room to climb.Thamnophis species are active foragers, not sit-and-wait predators, so it is natural for them to move around a lot. Some of them are very skittish and when I have housed individuals that are skittish in rack-like enclosures, it has always been difficult to handle them without risking having them eject themselves from the enclosure and injure themselves.

[MasSalvaje]

Thamnophis species are active foragers, not sit-and-wait predators, so it is natural for them to move around a lot.

Excellent pics everyone!

So it seems that vivarium is the preferred way to go, at least so far. Are there any circumstances that you would use a rack?

To go with Stefan's quote above I have a particular brumating den I like to visit many times a year just a few minutes from my house. For the last few years I have observed the same female and some of her habits. I know it is the same female because of a very unique scar she has. Anyway I have found her in many different spots within a few hundred yard radius eating a variaty of different prey items, throughout different times of the day. I found her one evening just befor dusk, she had eaten a big meal and was still on the move back to the den. Showing that even when full they are more active than a lot of other species. None of this is very scientific I realize just my own personal observation salitifying Stefan's statement.

-Thomas

[Stefan-A]

Are there any circumstances that you would use a rack?

During brumation. Can't think of any other circumstances, except some very unusual ones.

[Jeff B]

Just wanted to add a little bit of balance here, but first let me say that you guys all have some incredible vivariums, they are some of the nicest I have seen. I used to keep garters in Vivariums, and still think that it is definately the best way to go if you have a few animals, no doubt the best way to sit and watch their behavior and probably more enjoyable for the snake as well. But when you are breeding them and you have lots to take care of, it would not be doing them justice to not keep them in a clean healthy enviroment. You can keep a rack system of tubs very clean more efficiently for larger numbers of snakes. I clean all my tubs and water dishes thoroughly and change the carefresh substrate every week and it takes several hours at that, change water every couple days or more often if needed. I do agree that it isn't the desired space and freedom to view the world for the snakes, which is why I spend an hour or two every night getting several out, handeling them and letting them crawl around on the floor, and I rotate groups, ensuring that they all get out at least every week or so. I envey you guys that have nice vivariums and respect the care and dedication that you give each and every animal, but realize that a rack doesn't nessasarily equate cruelty or a lack of care or concern for the animals, it is simply a more effiecient way to keep largerer numbers of animals. If you have a beautiful vivarium but never clean it (not implying anyone here is in that category) that isn't any more respectful to the animal than a well kept rack system. It's a bit of fashion vs function and balancing things out for you the individual and the animals that you keep, but in the end I think what really matters is; are the animals getting good consistant care, and are you paying attention and knowing and loving your animals.
Peace

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

sunday is cleaning day for me!! every single sunday, I spend making sure everyone's habitat is clean and sparkling.

[And_Lyn]

Naturally, we can't know exactly what goes through the mind of the snake, so it's pretty pointless to speculate about which they like more.

stefan, my opinion may be wrong... but ill state mine anyway... captive vs wild is different but this species has evolved to live in a certain habitat correct? close to water etc... obviously they prefer amphibians like tadpoles or frogs, minnows, fish etc... i had a great conversation with wayne today on his success of nonfeeders starting with tadpoles and then working into a normal diet, which was great to hear.

instead of going off topic... my opinion is give them what they have evolved to live in.. for individuals...if you have many, then choose the most cost effective...both are completely understandable... but personally i prefer natural environment... that is until im up in the wayne and guido ranks of 100+ ... until then ill go natural

[Stefan-A]

stefan, my opinion may be wrong... but ill state mine anyway... captive vs wild is different but this species has evolved to live in a certain habitat correct? close to water etc... obviously they prefer amphibians like tadpoles or frogs, minnows, fish etc... i had a great conversation with wayne today on his success of nonfeeders starting with tadpoles and then working into a normal diet, which was great to hear.

instead of going off topic... my opinion is give them what they have evolved to live in.. for individuals...if you have many, then choose the most cost effective...both are completely understandable... but personally i prefer natural environment... that is until im up in the wayne and guido ranks of 100+ ... until then ill go natural

I do agree with you. If you don't mind I'd like to reply with a quote:

I do think that when nothing points to the contrary, mimicing nature is the best solution.

This is where I start rambling:

There are a couple of things that should be taken into account here, too. One is the idea that an organism is capable of identifying a suitable environment based simply on the general characteristics of it, without necessarily knowing whether for example food is abundant there. We know it to be true about humans, people all across the world are predisposed (apparently it's been studied and verified) to like the same types of landscapes, because they suggest that food and fresh water will be abundant there. Whether this theory applies to snakes and if it does, what are the implications and how do they identify a favourable environment, is open to debate. For all we know, our fake-nature-vivs are about as convincing to them as a plastic box in a rack.

The second thing is that organisms work with what they can. Generalists like garter snakes have trouble competing with dedicated fish eaters or mouse catchers, but they've been able to carve out a niche by being flexible and able to switch between several types of prey in radically different environments.That suggests that they would be less specific about their environment. Water is a central thing, sure, but it could also be (not saying it should be) dismissed simply because of the fact that water attracts all types of species.

This is not me defending either racks or vivs, it's just me thinking out loud.

[MasSalvaje]

This is not me defending either racks or vivs, it's just me thinking out loud.

You know Stefan you make a lot of sense when you think out loud (that is not to say you don't at other times also), very nice insight, thank you.

-Thomas

[karlh]

Good debate. I think racks are more cost effective and easier to clean etc, but a viv is much better looking. It all depends if you want to display your animals or have breeding in mind. then again if you was cooling your snakes you would have to cool the whole group. i would love more vivariums but i'm limited to what I can keep as i work away a lot.