I have fed my Garter/Ribbon Goldfish for 13 years. Is Thiaminase a problem?

[Jimyd]

Just as the title says. This is a wild caught snake found near my location. It is Black with White/Yellow stripes on the side with a Greyish/Green? belly.

My question is should I be worried about a Thiamine deficiency at this point?

I have tried feeding hairless pinky mice (smallest size possible) to him/her once (about 5 years ago), but he/she didn't want to take it.

Also the snake is about 2_1/2 feet long, maybe a bit longer.

Also if I were to suplement the snake with vitamins, what product do you recommend that can be located in Sacramento, CA.

The only stores near where I am are PETCO and PetSmart. I tried asking their snake expert there, but she said she has never heard of Thiaminase deficiency and says Goldfish are perfectly fine.

So yeah, I'm kind of confused to who to believe at this point. =|

[Odie]

Hi, from Oregon, Jimyd
Got a pic

[Didymus20X6]

If I understand correctly, thiaminase is a chemical that destroys thiamine, a necessary nutrient. It is in fact very highly present in goldfish, and with any diet that is not already rich in thiamine, it can be extremely unhealthy - even deadly - to consume.

Thiaminase - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not a snake expert by any stretch of the imagination (in fact, I only came here to learn about Thamnophis because I had a bunch of them in my yard), but it sounds to me like this pet store "expert" really isn't much of one.

[Millinex]

I'm not a snake expert by any stretch of the imagination (in fact, I only came here to learn about Thamnophis because I had a bunch of them in my yard), but it sounds to me like this pet store "expert" really isn't much of one.

Bingo, I can't even count the amount of times I've had to correct pet store employees. I've had to do everything from educating them on reptiles to telling them how to treat their sick fish. Most chain stores are generally stupid when it comes to animal husbandry short of cats/dogs.

[DrKate]

My question is should I be worried about a Thiamine deficiency at this point?

People tend to have very strong opinions on thiaminase, and I don't doubt the personal stories of horrible things happening, so I don't care to step on any toes. But here are some facts that I'm pretty sure of...

1) Thiaminase is *primarily* a problem in (some species of) fish that have been frozen and stored for some time. I'm by no means suggesting there's no risk with live fish, but it's definitely less than with frozen/stored fish. This is a common problem with captive keeping of all kinds of fish-eaters, including birds and marine mammals.
2) Thiaminase levels in the same species of fish can vary *very* widely depending on their diet and environment. This finding was in a study of wild fish, but it seems reasonable that it would translate to pond-reared feeder goldfish too.
3) Perhaps most importantly, you've been feeding goldfish from your local stores for 13 years, and presumably your snakes don't regularly die of the characteristic symptoms of thiamine deficiency. So whatever their combination of diet and environment, this particular supply of fish is probably not lethally high in thiaminase, right?

Yeah, it would probably be better if you start trying to get your snakes onto different prey - if only because you're not going to know if Petco happens to change suppliers or something, until you start to notice problems. I've heard (and experienced) that cutting pinkies in half, or at least splitting them open to expose the guts, may help tempt the snakes. And you can also try strips of "safe" fish like trout or silversides (possibly available at Petco) to get them started on pre-killed prey. If they just won't give up live fish, I do know that you can get feeder guppies from some aquarium stores in the SF Bay Area if you ever get down this way (I haven't made any calls further east than Pinole, so I don't know about Sacramento itself).

Good luck!

[prattypus]

Yeah... The experts at the big box pet stores tend to be teenagers on summer jobs with little or no pet experience beyond the electronic Tamagochi. I am not one by any stretch either, but I don't dole out the info.

[drache]

welcome to the forum
thiaminase can be a problem - or not, apparently
my personal policy has been to avoid it as I usually have access to safer foods

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

whether or not it's causing harm to your snake is unknown- 13 years is a long time. How big is your garter snake? at 13 years, he/she must be rather big! I noticed when I used to feed goldfish that my garters did not ever grow as fast, or as large as the ones I keep now.

But as always, since I am well aware of the thiaminase issue, have witnessed it's killings first hand, and have had people come rushing into my store with a seizuring, prematurely dieing young snake, I will steer far, far away from any fish known to contain thiaminase. I am fully convinced that NONE of the garter snakes I owned a few years ago are still alive because they were fed goldfish. They all showed the "symptoms" before they passed. Odd body movements, shudders, seizures even...It's just not worth the trouble. I also don't like how if I look hard enough I can find flatworms embedded in the skin and flesh of the feeders at my store. They stick out like little pimples and when cut out they can be up to 1/2 inch long. Does anyone know if these are transmissible to snakes, like, if they are burrowed in the fish in hopes of being eaten, or are they already at the end of their life cycle when they are burrowed in a fish as a cyst? They freak me the heck out.

I switched to frozen thawed silversides as the primary fish source for my snakes, along with cuts of trout and salmon, and have not looked back. My question about the frozen thawed aspect of thiaminase is - if my silversides didn't have it in them when they were alive, surely I don't see it spontaneously appearing when they are frozen and stored, since it's already documented of being present in many fish species that are alive and well? I can see how maybe freezing might make it more potent if it was already present in that particular species though.

[snakeman]

I would'nt be surprised if a lot of the seizures are coming from additives that the employees are putting in the water to help the fish survive longer.I remember back in the day , Robert Rice had almost his whole collection wiped out from some bait store minnows he bought.They put some additive that contained some copper compound or something.It killed them fast too.I wish I knew how to get in contact to find out what it was exactly.I don't think he keeps garters anymore.

[guidofatherof5]

Shannon,

I don't think thiaminase will appear in fish if it's not there to begin with. It's not the freezing process that creates it.

I miss feeding my radixes live fish but the enjoyment of watching they hunt isn't worth their death.

While I was out Herping yesterday I came across a field mouse. I was able to catch it and kill it. The whole time I thought my Speckle or JW (my two biggest girl) would love to have a full grown mouse. On the way home I knew I was going to freeze it for a couple of months just to make sure parasites weren't an issue. At one point it hit me, I had no idea what this rodent had be eating or what other problems could occur with feeding it to my snakes. Out the window it went. Better safe than sorry. I have a very difficult time losing any of mine. I don't want it to happen because of something I did or didn't do. Safe foods all the way here at the T.r adix Ranch