PUGET Update (Vet Visit & more ;))

[mikm]

Hello all … Have a seat as this will be a long read !As I previously stated I am “not a big fan of taking garters to a vet”. I suspect my personal reasons are twofold. First and foremost is that most reptile vets are unfamiliar with garters. Also, I would be very disappointed if the vet prescribed the same treatment I can find on the net. Lastly (threefold ?? ) is ones comfort level in *doctoring* an animal. So … that said here’s my story …

THE VET …
I totally lucked out here … She is fantastic. Her following two appointments canceled so I got to spend LOTS of time there and learned much ! If anyone resides in the South Jersey area I would be more then happy to recommend this vet …

OBSERVATIONS …
Female #1
· vet concurred that worms in pic are tapeworms (gotta’ luv a dig cam)
· sticky saliva and slight bubbling all from the left side of her mouth.
· trachea is clear and NOT the source of the bubbles J
· left side of her mouth is slightly enflamed, but did not bleed when swabbed.

Female #2
· her mouth is clearly inflamed, left side worse then right side.
· mouth color is dark pink, obvious discomfort, her mouth bled being swabbed.
· slight bubbling but trachea is also clear ! (dodged another bullet there !)

DIAGNOSIS …
Tapeworms
· Praziquantel (Droncit) _ Dosage : 8mg/k /this is an over the counter cat de-wormer but the Pugets got shots. This med is very bitter tasting and the injection stings.
· Necessity of 2nd follow up dose to be determined

Mouth Rot
· Baytril for 10 to 28 days in an oral suspension (Baytril liquid was compounded at a pharmacy at Vets calculated dosage based on their current weights.)
· Daily applications of diluted (1%) Nolvasan or Betadine swabbed directly onto the affected mouth area with a q-tip. Must ensure snakes mouth is held horizontally to ensure none is swallowed.
· Daily applications of aloe to the inside, irritated mouth area. I have live aloe plants at home so I use the “juice/gel” directly from a leaf. This is non-toxic and can be swallowed. This promotes healing and soothes inflamed skin.

SOOO …I can happily report that they all ate like pigs yesterday (2nd day of treatment) and they are all very active. I believe my *saving grace* so to speak in all of this is that it was detected and treated before they stopped feeding. I feel very confident that this group will rebound from all of this !! They are very beautiful animals, very inquisitive, & quite the little personalities ... marian


MISC UPDATES …
· *bob* (my snake’s baby daddy ) did answer my email. At the moment I am not at liberty to divulge the contents of that email. Should that change I will share with all

· I have been told by fellow hobbyists that *Panacur* does NOT work very effectively in Garters. Remember that’s an *opinion* but from an experienced source.

[Cazador]

Thanks for the update, and congratulations for getting them in to see the vet. It looks like you caught the mouth rot in time, before the swelling prevented them from feeding properly or causing respiratory problems. Nice job! I'm curious whether you took in a fecal sample to have them checked for protozoan, roundworm, AND amoebic infestations as well? Your vet may only be treating the symptoms she's seen and may not have been able to diagnose other conditions without a fecal sample. I'm sort of pushing here because my snakes had roundworms, which have a direct life cycle, meaning any snakes housed with my snakes were exposed to the roundworms through the feces. Then the worms bore right through the skin to infest another host.

I'd like to offer a second opinion on the Panacur assessment since I suspect I know where the first assessment originated. My personal experience as well as controlled efficacy studies from two published vets (Klingenberg and Rossi), who now have over 50 years of collective, but independent, experience shows that panacur is effective at removing roundworms. It is not, however, suggested for use against tapeworms. It takes a minimum of three treatments to get rid of roundworms, and the timing must coincide with the hatching of eggs in the system when the doses are given. Improper treatment, however, will render it useless.

I got a similar "assessment" of Panacur's efficacy from *Bob,* but luckily I ignored it when my second pair of T. ordinoides started showing signs of illness. Not to be offensive, but I consider the previous sources (as well as my own experience) to be more credible than a distributor who continually offers parasitized snakes to his customers. This fact alone shows that his treatment regime and recommendations are unreliable. I wouldn't want anyone to become confused or scared away from using Panacur based on his faulty info. There's a lot more I could share about his recommendations, but I'll just say that following them produced two dead snakes. I hope this didn't sound too blunt, but he's scammed and misled a lot of people for the sake of a dollar, and Marian, you would have had a very similar and disappointing experience if it weren't for the experience of others who he's scammed. Please don't put too much stock in his advise. On the bright side, I'm glad you've found a good vet who you trust. Best wishes,

Rick

[Sid]

Glad you found a vet you are comfortable with and exspect a full recovery. Keep us posted.

Sid

[suzoo]

Mikm, I'm so happy you caught it in time, and found a worthy Vet!!! Good luck and I hope for their full recovery!!!

[mikm]

hey Rick ... sorry about the panacur reference ... I did say it was an someone's *opinion* ... my apologies. I am extremely greatful to everyone on this forum who offered their advice.

_ I would have never mentioned *bob* were it not for the impression I had that he had not answered anyone's emails. I think it would be safe to *assume* that if you have any of these animals one would treat as WC. Personally I am not angry at *bob* or anyone. I totally understand all of the things that come into play here with this situation and it's surely unfortunate. However, I'm dealing with a situation as it exists for me right now.

I have cared for sick Garters in the past but (until now) not for quite some time. There are so many advances in meds generally speaking so I am more apt to look for a *new* antibiotic, wormer, etc ... Or at least *new* to garters. We will be doing some follow up investigation. After the meds are complete the Vet requested a fecal *smear* not a float. She was very specific in that but too much was going on & I neglected to pursue the reason. She also swabbed the inside of the Big girls mouth & submitted it to be further study. I should know those results in about a week.

Again, I realize that some folks lost their animals and helped me tremendously by sharing their experiences with me. Hopefully I can give a little back by posting all of the medical info/knowlegde.

best regards,
marian

[Cazador]

No worries, Marian. I'm certainly not offended by anything YOU said, and I hope I didn't offend YOU. I think mentioning the panacur issue paints a fuller picture of his husbandry techniques. What burns me up is that so many people have fallen prey to his methods, yet he hasn't changed. They've (we've) paid a lot of money, only to receive beautiful snakes on their death bed. I, and I'm sure everyone else, appreciates that you're sharing your experiences.

Your vet really seems to be "on the ball." The fecal smear is being done after the initial treatment to see what remains after she's treated the most urgent symptoms. She's doing a fecal smear to look for live protozoans. A float would be better suited to find eggs (more difficult and doesn't seem warranted given the treatment already underway). The swab may have been to look for flukes and/or to culture the bacteria to look for Pseudomonas/Aeromonas sp. (assoc with pneumonia) and perhaps to look for other gram negative bacteria (associated with the mouth rot). It sounds like she's being thorough .

Rick

[garterking]

I got a similar "assessment" of Panacur's efficacy from *Bob,* but luckily I ignored it when my second pair of T. ordinoides started showing signs of illness. Not to be offensive, but I consider the previous sources (as well as my own experience) to be more credible than a distributor who continually offers parasitized snakes to his customers. This fact alone shows that his treatment regime and recommendations are unreliable. I wouldn't want anyone to become confused or scared away from using Panacur based on his faulty info. There's a lot more I could share about his recommendations, but I'll just say that following them produced two dead snakes. I hope this didn't sound too blunt, but he's scammed and misled a lot of people for the sake of a dollar, and Marian, you would have had a very similar and disappointing experience if it weren't for the experience of others who he's scammed. Please don't put too much stock in his advise. On the bright side, I'm glad you've found a good vet who you trust. Best wishes,
Rick

MARIAN: Great job on taking care of the little ones. Once the're healthy again, they will be a great joy to you.

On another note.............I just cannot sit silent anymore about "bob". It just pi$$es me off to no end that I continue to read these stories about his snakes. I asked in another post if there were any positive stories from anyone who purchased from this clown. Guess what? The thread died without a positive remark to him. The only thing that stopped me from buying a couple puget's from him were the horror stories on here (and some private messages back and forth from some of the members here - Thanks guys), and the fact that when I asked him about some of the sick snakes (very politely), his mood changed. He said "If I didn't like it then he didn't care. He would sell them to someone else".

I also stated in that post that I didn't want to prejudge, but I don't think I am anymore. The guy is a scam artist. He doesn't care about the snakes he is selling or who he sells to. He cares only about the almighty dollar. I for one volunteer to be the first to email him that until he takes better care of these awesome snakes, I won't buy anything from him. If enough people were to do the same, maybe he would get the hint. It's really a shame that the only real source of the puget's, seems to be him. Sad to say but as long as there is a demand and people buy from him, then why would he ever change. Maybe we could send him to this board so he could read/see what's being said about him. I know this sounds harsh and it's only my opinion, but I think it's something that needs to get done.

Marian: I wish you and your little ones all the best and hope they recover nicely. Maybe with some help from members here and your healthy ones, you can be the new supplier of the puget sound garters. I think that's what is needed, and since the demand is there, it's also wanted. Again, all the best. Ok, now that I got that off my chest, I feel better.

[suzoo]

I would like to give Garterking a standing ovation!!!
Bob is lucky I don't have his e-mail address! I have never bought from him, but I have heard only tragic stories from those who have, and it makes me sad and angry!!!!

[GarterGuy]

Hey Marian,
Sounds like you've got a good thing going with your vet (it's soo hard to find a good herp vet, had one here, but she moved away...really sucks!) and it's sounding like your T.ordinoides (aka. "Bob's Pugets") are on the road to recovery. I wish you all the best with them and like GarterKing had stated, hopefully you and the others on the site who were able to get there Blues too pull through, can be a source of nice, HEALTHY, captive bred offspring in the future.
As for "Bob", I've now seen him on other classifieds selling other species of snakes (not just garters)....he's going to continue to do this as long as people are going to continue to buy. Unfortunately, there have always been and will always be "Bobs" out there who operate like this. It's not so much that he was selling wild caught animals....that's to be expected from a group of snakes that's not well established as captive bred animals, yet......it's the fact that he was falsely representing them as being well and healthy and had given very poor advice on caring and treating them. If he had just said, "Wild caught Puget gaters, not treated for parasites, ect.", then it wouldn't have been misleading to have bought from him and had problems with the animals. He knew he wouldn't be able to sell them if he was honest.....so he went the other route and here's were the problem lies. Well again, my only comment on all this is "buyer beware".....if you get animals from some guy named "Bob" (never did give a last name and I actually got emails from him at the start from two different addresses!) over the computer, with no history of the animals or himself, you could be in to be screwed! Personally, I'm sticking to people I know and trust.
Roy

[mikm]

thank you all for the kind words !! I really do find this sub-species attractive on a few different levels and I would love nothing more then to establish a nice healthy, productive group. Just because I enjoy them ! Have to run as my *other half* is starting to mumble things out loud like *you act as if all of this is normal* as I slide a narrow syringe full of Baytril down a snakes throat, lol )

peace out,
marian