What exactly is a Th. radix "Quad het"

[schlangenland]

Hi together,
we keep 1,3 Th. radix (bought as) "quad het". The females are Albinos (amel. Iowa), the male is anerythristic. Last year we had hatchlings: snow, albino, anerythristic, wildcoloured 25% each. Snow & albino are both Iowa/ Nebraska- line. I think S. Felzer "created" this name. Maybe someone can help me? How should I name the adults exactly and understandable (but short named) and the hatchlings?

Thanx a lot. Sincerely.
Thomas

[schlangenland]

Hi together,
we keep 1,3 Th. radix (bought as) "quad het". The females are Albinos (amel. Iowa), the male is anerythristic. Last year we had hatchlings: snow, albino, anerythristic, wildcoloured 25% each. Snow & albino are both Iowa/ Nebraska- line. I think S. Felzer "created" this name. Maybe someone can help me? How should I name the adults exactly and understandable (but short named) and the hatchlings?

Thanx a lot. Sincerely.
Thomas

here are some pictures of the group:



hatchlings 9/06:

[Snaky]

I think it's like the name indicates they are 4 times (quad) heterozygote. They are heterozygote for: ebraska albino, Nebraska snow, Iowa albino and Iowa snow.

[schlangenland]

Hi Hans,
thanx for your reply:-) But what about the anerythristic? My first guess was, it's not absolutely scientific, but trivial named: het for snow, albino, anerythristic, wild coulored (=4)... Daniel Grübner (also a member of thamnophis.com, friend of mine from the EGSA) thinks, it's more scientific named: double het for anerythristic +amelanistic Iowa and amel Nebraska (=4)... I already sent a mail to Mr. Felzer... I'm also waiting for an answer from him...
Lots of greetings to belgium.
Sincerely. Thomas

ps.: do you get some more cyrtopsis from Jan Gebauer?

[Cazador]

Quad het just implies that you're dealing with different versions (alleles) for four different genes. Let's simplify things just a bit for discussion by looking at only one gene. If an organism is heterozygous for that gene, it means that it got one allele (let's say a "dominant" allele) from its father, and a different allele (let's say a "recessive" allele) from its mother. Dominant genes normally dictate the appearance (or phenotype) of the animal, so heterozygous individuals look just like individuals that have two of the same copies of the dominant allele (or homozygous dominant individuals). I know that was a mouthful, so in other words, hets look just like non-hets with dominant alleles. Only individuals with two copies of the recessive allele (homozygous recessive) normally have a different appearance (or phenotype).

Getting back to the quad het, you're dealing with at least four different genes that have different alleles (versions of a gene) at all four sites (or loci). Knowing the genetic make-up (or genotype) of heterozygotes is very difficult, even if you keep strict and meticulous records, unless you conduct genetic analysis, which takes sophisticated and expensive equipment. Why? Because hets look just like homozygous dominant individuals. That's why most people talk about the "probability" of having hets.

Here's a link back to one of Scott's web pages where he discusses hets (Scott Felzer's Garter Snakes). I know this is a difficult topic, so hopefully Kitkat (and perhaps others) can take a fresh stab at explaining it more clearly. Hope this has helped, though.

Rick

P.S. The "wild type" or wild color is the dominant appearance (phenotype). It is the opposite of these traits, so it's not counted as one of the "quad" genes that are heterozygous. Also, Daniel's description sounds reasonable, but please let us know what Scott tells you.

[Snaky]

ps.: do you get some more cyrtopsis from Jan Gebauer?

Yep, normally I will get them on monday , 2 new males. I'm also looking for 1 (2) female's and then the breeding group will be complete for me. I'm hoping to borrow a camera next week, so I might post some picture's of some nice cyrtopsis I added to my collection .

Well, learned again something. Thanks Cazador.
And now I know I won't buy 66% het's if I want to breed for a morph.

[Cazador]

Hey Hans,

Just to be clear, that means it looks like a normal individual, but there is a 66% chance that one of its two forms (alleles) of a gene is recessive. It also means there is a 33.3% chance that neither of its alleles are recessive, and you would have bought a completely "normal" snake.

[Snaky]

It also means there is a 33.3% chance that neither of its alleles are recessive, and you would have bought a completely "normal" snake.

Exactly why I wouldn't buy it if I want to breed morphs
(mistyped buy in previous post...)

[KITKAT]

Anery is necessary to make Snow.

If your snake is het snow, then anery is implied by that. Snakes are not het for wild colored, because wild color is not a recessive gene.

Hi Hans,
thanx for your reply:-) But what about the anerythristic? My first guess was, it's not absolutely scientific, but trivial named: het for snow, albino, anerythristic, wild coulored (=4)... Daniel Grübner (also a member of thamnophis.com, friend of mine from the EGSA) thinks, it's more scientific named: double het for anerythristic +amelanistic Iowa and amel Nebraska (=4)... I already sent a mail to Mr. Felzer... I'm also waiting for an answer from him...
Lots of greetings to belgium.
Sincerely. Thomas

ps.: do you get some more cyrtopsis from Jan Gebauer?

[KITKAT]

Hey Hans,

Just to be clear, that means it looks like a normal individual, but there is a 66% chance that one of its two forms (alleles) of a gene is recessive. It also means there is a 33.3% chance that neither of its alleles are recessive, and you would have bought a completely "normal" snake.

I respectfully disagree. A het is 100% sure to carry a recessive trait.

However a 66% possible het would be what Cazador describes...