Of ribbons and garters

[Stefan-A]

One look at a ribbon snake compared to a garter and the difference is obvious as night and day.

Except that all ribbon snakes are garters.

[ConcinusMan]

Yeah, yeah Stefan. But to me that's like saying all Cervidae are deer.

[Stefan-A]

Yeah, yeah Stefan. But to me that's like saying all Cervidae are deer.

Or that all Colubridae are colubrids.

[ConcinusMan]

Or that all Colubridae are colubrids.

My point is, there are deer, there are elk, there are moose. They aren't all deer. Some Thamnophis are garters, others are ribbons. There's a difference dangit!

[Stefan-A]

Come on, that one was practically gift-wrapped. You could well have pointed out that not all of Colubridae are actually colubrids. Long story short, they used to dump everything that they couldn't quite place in Viperidae, Boidae or Elapidea, in Colubridae and people are just starting to sort that family out.

But no, moose (or elk, which is the proper English name for the species Alces alces and not just a Native American loanword) are deer. Should have an article somewhere that shows it pretty conclusively but I'm probably not going to find it again.

[ConcinusMan]

Come on, that one was practically gift-wrapped.

Yes it was.

C'mon now. They call them ribbon snakes, and garter snakes for a reason. They're different and distinguishable from one another. Stop calling them garter snakes. What are you trying to do, get a job at Petco?

Ribbon Snakes are easily distinguishable from other Garter Sankes by body mass, like T.fulvus by it´s black tongue or T.rufipunctatus by it´s head shape.
Your snake is a T.proximus (parietal spots close together fusing to one)
I would guess a T.p.proximus because T.p.orarius should have a wider and
well distinct yellow dorsal stripe.

I'm not sure of anything anymore. Too much conflicting information. You just described the snake shown in this link, which is said to be a gulf coast ribbon snake T. proximus orarius and this one has 8 upper labials and looks very different from the snake in question.(the subject of this thread)

Thamnophis proximus orarius - Gulf Coast Ribbon Snake

Forget it Snake85, none of us know what we're talking about. We don't know at all what you have. Stefan thinks it's a garter snake and the rest of us seem to be completely lost.

[Stefan-A]

C'mon now. They call them ribbon snakes, and garter snakes for a reason. They're different and distinguishable from one another. Stop calling them garter snakes. What are you trying to do, get a job at Petco?

It's an unjustified distinction and the common names of T. proximus and T. sauritus need to be changed to reflect the fact that they are garter snakes. Even T. radix and T. elegans are further removed from T. sirtalis, than those two species.

[ConcinusMan]

It's an unjustified distinction and the common names of T. proximus and T. sauritus need to be changed to reflect the fact that they are garter snakes. Even T. radix and T. elegans are further removed from T. sirtalis, than those two species.

That's all fine and dandy and very good points but we don't call them ribbon snakes because they are far removed from T. sirtalis. Doesn't the Latin names indicate their relationship? Ribbon snakes are classified as Thamnophis so what is it you feel that needs to be changed? Are you suggesting that they should be called T. sirtalis (ssp) ? Even if they were, I'd still call them ribbon snakes because of the difference in their body mass, because of their long whip-like body.

[Stefan-A]

That's all fine and dandy and very good points but we don't call them ribbon snakes because they are far removed from T. sirtalis. Doesn't the Latin names indicate their relationship? Ribbon snakes are classified as Thamnophis so what is it you feel that needs to be changed? Are you suggesting that they should be called T. sirtalis (ssp) ? Even if they were, I'd still call them ribbon snakes because of the difference in their body mass, because of their long whip-like body.

You can call them deer for all I care, but as long as they belong to Thamnophis, they are garter snakes.

[ConcinusMan]

Thamnophis = Garter AND Ribbon Snakes