The Thiaminase Debate

[Zephyr]

Yet again, at the advice of James, I'm starting a controversial thread. XD
For the discussion and debate of thiaminase and all other topics concerning it, I have this story as my side of the debate. Remember, we're all trying to discover the best diet for our snakes, and I don't think any one here is purposely going to try and kill their garter. *Otherwise you wouldn't be here. :P*

At the local wildlife area, there are two varieties of garters: The ones that live in the gardening plots and the surrounding forests, and those that live in the meadow by the lake and around it and rose garden pond. The "land" variety appears to have a diet consisting only of earthworms, slugs *especially the introduced leopard slug*, the occasional toad *Very rare* and mice, while the "water" variety eats only fish and frogs, with the fish being the majority of the diet. The problem with this is that the pond and lake are severely overrun with goldfish from irresponsible pet owners, and the local species are limited to the southern, rocky shore of the lake. The garters are found thoroughly through the western side where goldfish are most plentiful due to a seasonal creek and a large, algae-infested wetlands area. Somehow, the snakes manage to reach HUGE sizes on a limited diet of goldfish and baby green frogs. I may be jumping to conclusions, but wouldn't these snakes succumb to thiaminase poisoning if there wasn't something in their quadrupedal prey that helped buffer the toxicity?

[tikichick]

Interesting question. Is thiaminase naturally present at a high level in goldfish, or is it a result of captive fish-flake diets?

[Zephyr]

Interesting question. Is thiaminase naturally present at a high level in goldfish, or is it a result of captive fish-flake diets?

From my research, all goldfish have it. I can think of one main argument against goldfish, aside from the thiaminase *which is supposedly in larger amounts in goldfish as compared to rosies*: Goldfish are native to Asia, and rosies are native to many of the areas where garters live. Rosies, AKA fat head minnows, are natives of the US and the gold strain is simply a cultivated variety. In the wild, I have observed many aquatic and semi aquatic snakes eating fatheads, which are on the list of thiaminase containing species. Some of the other American species of fish, such as sunfish, do not contain thiaminase, or at least not in noticeable levels. However, from personal experience, I have never seen a garter go after sunfish, except by accident when the young school with baitfish minnows, such as rosies. Also, sunfish spines are VERY sharp, and my old snake Cremepuff could barely fit down a 3-inch bluegill, and he/she was around 3 feet. So, my conclusion is that minnows and other cyprinids are a common part of garter snake's diet, but are not their exclusive choice. Therefore, I conclude that a staple diet of rosies, combined with a scheduled rodent or amphibian, is a healthy and natural diet for these snakes.

[Zephyr]

Of course, for the species that prefer worms to snakes, you could say a similar predicament exists, except in the form of lack of nutrients. So I'd say in this case, supplementation is all that's needed.

[ssssnakeluvr]

it's an interesting question.....I fed w/c garters goldfish for years with no noticeable problems. Before I moved to Utah I lived in Idaho. I would go up to my home town and catch a gravid female and take her home. she would be fed goldfish all summer until she gave birth....never noticed any problems withthe mother or the babies.... I would take them back and release them where I found the mother. since getting on the internet I have quit feeding goldfish. I have noticed some problems with some catfish strips I was using...feeding babies the catfish (which I later found on the list containing thiaminase) would cause neurological problems....twisting when crawling. It even caused a few snakes death. I have switched to trout and tilapia when no trout is available along with the rodents in their diet. I wonder if it's more detrimental to babies and juveniles than adults?????

[GarterGuy]

Well from some observations that I've done, I think your garters are probably sustained more off of the amphibian population then the fish. I've noticed, again and again, that thriving populations of garters are often associated with good amphibian populations as well. All my good garter sites also have a really healthy amphibian population. Even though you probably don't see as many frogs as you do fish......there's probably a lot more there. Also if they do feed on the fish, they wouldn't be doing so exclusively, so their diet would be varied enough to offset any most of the affects from the thiaminase in the fish. You CAN feed your garters goldfish occasionally, it's just when it's made a staple part of the diet that's when problems can arise. Because garters are so varied in diet, unless you're actually capturing the snakes and getting them to regurgitate there meals, you really don't know exactly what they're feeding on and in what quantity. Don't assume that a snake that feeds on earthworms has dietary problems. Feeding in captivity and in the wild are very different. There are species that specialize in feeding on worms (T.brachystoma for instance) and they do just fine on this diet. You've just got to make sure the worms you're using are nutritious. Worms in the wild are taking in all kinds of plant matter, soil, ect.....all this "stuff" will have nutrients in it that the worm it's self doesn't. It's like gut loading feeder insects for lizards. Lizard keepers know that wild insects have the most nutrition, it's just they can also carry parasites and toxins. I really believe the best captive diet for garters is to keep things varied as much as possible, while making sure all their nutritional needs are met.

[EdgyExoticReptiles]

im breeding platies now they are supposed to be on the good list containing lesss thimanaise (spelling?) than goldfish and rosies and im eventualy gunna do a 50% mice 50% fish diet does that sound good?

[sschind]

I've got a baby male T.s.pickeringii who will not eat anything but live fish. The female takes unscented pinkies and is growing fast and looks great but the male... not so much. I am alternating rosies with zebra danios as guppies are simply too small. So far he looks fine from a behavior standpoint. His color is no where near the female but that could just be the way it is. I've tried scenting with no luck (just thought if this though, if it's the movement maybe I should try scenting a live pinky, I'll try it today and let you know) I would think that a varied diet would be acceptable. As long as they get a portion of their diet that is thiaminase free they should be OK. For most animals however, variety is the best.

Steve

[KITKAT]

I've got a baby male T.s.pickeringii who will not eat anything but live fish. The female takes unscented pinkies and is growing fast and looks great but the male... not so much. I am alternating rosies with zebra danios as guppies are simply too small. So far he looks fine from a behavior standpoint. His color is no where near the female but that could just be the way it is. I've tried scenting with no luck (just thought if this though, if it's the movement maybe I should try scenting a live pinky, I'll try it today and let you know) I would think that a varied diet would be acceptable. As long as they get a portion of their diet that is thiaminase free they should be OK. For most animals however, variety is the best.

Steve

I just lost one of my two concinnus females about two weeks ago. She refused to eat anything but fish, and I had been lulled into believing that roseys were OK, so that is all she ate. I offered her nightcrawlers, scented pinkie parts, scented beef heart strips, etc, but she only took live Roseys. She died in convulsions, as often described for thiamine deficiency. An oral bolus of vitamin B complex did not save her. I filmed her symptoms, but I fear putting it up on youtube, due to comments I will probably get. I am pretty blue about losing her, and am now feeding trout strips as the fish part of my feeding regimen. Her sister, who eats earthworms, fish, and heart strips, seems fine. I hate that I lost her, and feel guilty that I did not do more reading!

[tikichick]

You can disable the comments when you post on youtube, though some may send you messages, but if you put in the description that its for educating on the symptoms, etc, I think it'd be good to show folks what can happen.

I'm sorry for your loss