I need ammunition!!!

[gregmonsta]

That store that I love so much failed another one of my tests today. Needless to say their opinion is still that it's perfectly fine to promote crickets and locusts as a part of a ribbon snake's diet. I'll be hitting google later on .... but any help to gather evidence of this being absolute nonesense will be greatly apprechiated. I plan to present my case to the SSPCA as soon as possible.

[guidofatherof5]

Go get'em Greg.

[Stefan-A]

What, the fact that they are fish/amphibian specialists isn't enough for them?

[gregmonsta]

Nope .... regarding the shop any factual advice has fallen on deaf ears .... as far as presenting evidence to the SSPCA the more I can present them with the better as they don't have the best record when it comes to being aware of reptile husbandry.

[drache]

they are clear about what kind of snake it is, right?
you need to make sure of that first; because if not, then you have to submit evidence of what species
once you've got that clear, you just need literature to support your claim that they're not being fed right
I can scan some stuff from books I have here and email them to you as pdfs
I'm assuming you have Rossman et al, but if you don't - I do
what are they - proximus or sauritus?
I'll scan the relevant pages from at least the Rossi & Rossi book, and see what else I've got

[gregmonsta]

they are clear about what kind of snake it is, right?
you need to make sure of that first; because if not, then you have to submit evidence of what species
once you've got that clear, you just need literature to support your claim that they're not being fed right
I can scan some stuff from books I have here and email them to you as pdfs
I'm assuming you have Rossman et al, but if you don't - I do
what are they - proximus or sauritus?
I'll scan the relevant pages from at least the Rossi & Rossi book, and see what else I've got

I've got Rossman ... the ribbons are advertised as sauritus although at my last visit I believe that 80% of them were actually proximus as Panama is (although the importer or their collector are in part to blame for that). But yes every extra piece of backup is apprechiated .... I'll pm you my e-mail addy.

[gregmonsta]

Ok ... I now am despairing about the sheer number of web advice, care-sheets and info sites that actually suggest feeding insects

[Stefan-A]

Ok ... I now am despairing about the sheer number of web advice, care-sheets and info sites that actually suggest feeding insects

Any articles dealing with the stomach contents of ribbon snakes?

http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collectio...-297-2003E.pdf
Feeding habits

The Northern Ribbonsnake feeds in the morning or early evening, and prey is detected both by olfaction and by vision (Ernst and Barbour, 1989). Many authors have commented on the absence of earthworms in the diet of this species (Ditmars, 1907; Toner, 1935; Logier, 1958; Froom, 1972; Minton, 1972; Lazell, 1976; Harding, 1997), unlike most other members of the genus. Carpenter (1952a) examined the food preferences of 547 Michigan ribbonsnakes, in both field and laboratory. Amphibians comprised 90% of prey items taken in the wild. Two fish and two caterpillars were also recovered from ribbonsnakes, with the remainder of food items consisting of unidentified material. In laboratory feeding trials, many of the prey items offered were not consumed, including small gartersnakes (Thamnophis spp.), hairy caterpillars, soft bodied caterpillars (which were consumed in the field), spiders, ants, grasshoppers, beetles, leeches and earthworms. Conversely, several prey items not found in wild-caught ribbonsnakes were accepted in the laboratory: these included Jefferson's Salamanders (Ambystoma jeffersonianum), American Toads (Bufo americanus), minnows and chopped fish. Carpenter (1952a) believed that the scarcity of fish as prey in the wild snakes’ diet was probably due to the difficulty the snakes have in capturing them, because fish were readily eaten in the laboratory.

Brown (1979) examined the stomach contents of 21 Northern Ribbonsnakes from Michigan and New York. All 27 food items found were amphibian and 93% were anurans. Small Leopard Frogs (Rana pipiens) comprised 18 of the 27 food items. Other species consumed in smaller numbers were Spring Peepers (Pseudacris crucifer), newts (Notophthalmus spp.), a Green Frog (R. clamitans), a very small American toad (Bufo americanus) and (probably) a Pickerel Frog (R. palustris). Only three of the 21 stomachs examined contained more than one food item. Betz (1981) made observations on the feeding preferences of a captive Northern Ribbonsnake from the Bruce Peninsula, Ontario. The snake refused every frog offered to it, feeding instead chiefly on Redback Salamanders (Plethodon cinereus). Minnows and goldfish were also consumed occasionally.

Evans (1942) describes the fishing method used by two ribbonsnakes in Missouri. The snakes swam with mouths fully open and upon contact with a fish the mouth immediately closed, thus capturing the prey. Carpenter (1952a) watched an adult female ribbonsnake chasing frogs along the shoreline of a pool in Michigan. Over a period of 45 minutes, the snake chased and missed eight frogs.As might be expected, there are also stray reports of atypical prey taken by ribbonsnakes. Hamilton and Pollack (1956) reported a large lycosid spider as the only prey item in the stomach of an Eastern Ribbonsnake. Young ribbonsnakes may
consume insects on a more regular basis (Froom, 1972).

[drache]

none of that actually says conclusively that they eat insects, and most certainly not exclusively
and who's to say that even a stomach content analysis might not sometimes yield an amphibian's recently consumed, as yet undigested prey

[Stefan-A]

none of that actually says conclusively that they eat insects, and most certainly not exclusively
and who's to say that even a stomach content analysis might not sometimes yield an amphibian's recently consumed, as yet undigested prey

No, but does show fairly conclusively that insects don't belong to a ribbon snake's diet. Well over 90% amphibians, the rest fish and a couple of cases of atypical prey ingestion is pretty conclusive evidence against the insectivore hypothesis. It even seems that I overestimated how much they rely on fish.