Opinions needed

[Tori]

Ok, I thought he was just talking but I guess he meant it. I had 6 garters show up at my house today in the mail. 6 W/C redsided garters. One of them has me confused though. It has no red at all, not a speck. But the other markings are right for a redsided garter and they all came from the same general area. Is it a genetic thing or is it a cross with with a puget sound which are also local there? Sorry, I left them large on purpose.





I have them in a 55 fallon tank for now until I can build new cages.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Where did these 6 W/C's come from again? You said they were supposed to be Red-sided Garters (T. s. parietalis); if they are, then the oddball black & white can't be a Puget Sound Garter (T. s. pickerengii), for the two subspecies do not intergrade naturally. They are separated by hundreds of miles of Valley Garter (T. s. fitchi) territory. If you meant that these were W/C Red-spotted Garter (T. s. concinnus) {and they look kinda like low-red examples}, then the oddball could very well be a Puget Sound. Does the belly have any blue-ish gray tints? You might possibly consider a species check as well - could be a "clean-cut" variant of the Mountain Garter (T. e. elegans)

Time to count scales....

Let me know what you find out...

Steven

[Tori]

T. s. concinnus does not have the bright side stripe that these have, though the area does have T.s.fitchi and T.s. pickeringii. I did some checking and you were right, there are no red sided garters in that area. Is there such a thing as a valley garter with no red?

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

T.s. fitchi, infernalis, parietalis, and concinnus are all known for having the typical red spots (or what I call vertical bars); Similarly patterned indentations (depends on what a person calls foreground or background!) are prevalent in many garter species. Even pickerengii has indications of these.

I personally have not seen any "no-red" fitchis, but they have a large range, so variability, hyper-melanistic mutation, all of that could be possible knowing garters. You still have not mentioned where these came from. WA? OR? What part? West, East??? I am still trying to ascertain if another species might be possible.

I do not see any noticeable spotting anywhere in the black field (sometimes it shows up as dark black spots on black [heh? ]

Have you counted supra-labial scales? Scale rows (neck, mid-body, and caudal counts)?

[Tori]

Washington - Olympia area

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

There are anerythristics red-sided garters available in the captive trade. I have no experience with this mutation in the wild, but that does not mean it does not exist. Has to start somewhere!

[Tori]

The red ones have cream colored bellies with no striping and a thin black stripe under the yellow side stripe. Some have red spots on cream colored cheeks and some have red almost to the top of their heads. The one without red has a slight blue cast to his belly, no striping.

[Tori]

Belly and side shots of one of the red ones.





This guy was nicely climbing for me, the no-red one is hiding and I don't have a good way to get a good photo without help. I have to say that these do not match any of the valley garter photos that I've been able to find online. They look identical to my California redsided garters without the blue.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Well, I think we are narrowing it down now. I have to say the 5 look very much like the Valley Garters we have near the mouth of the Klamath River here in NW California. No blue bellies, but they still mimic an infernalis intergrade with those occasional reds in the cheeks and mixed with the black on the head. A 3 hr drive inland from Eureka, CA (east towards the Trinity Alps Wilderness) the fitchis all have solid black heads.

As for the Olympia area (I'm thinking maybe a bit east of the Olympia area?), it is very close to a 3-way intergrade zone! Perhaps not even an hour's drive SSE, Lone Pine's Reptiles of the Northwest implicates an apex b/n the bounderies of fitchi, concinnus, and pickerengii.

I was contemplating perhaps the Mountain Garter, but the range is wrong. The Wandering Garter frequents the Olympia area, but I know of no T. e. vagrans with those markings. Head shape does not make me think it's a Northwestern (T. ordinoides - also found in that area!) either, even though they, being the MOST variable garter, may come with that pattern.

Honestly, I believe you have 5 fitchis (of pretty typical phase and form) and 1 pickerengii (noted for both having the "blues", no reds, and an occasional lack of "indentations" aiming for that total striped look).

See what happens when 2 folks put their heads together?!

Steve

[infernalis]

I had 6 garters show up at my house today in the mail. 6 W/C redsided garters.

Sounds like BOB

Check them for mites really well. Whenever multiple WC animals are packed together, if one has mites, they all will have mites.

My Puget boy Sky came from the same place. I wound up treating mites, then 2 of the mite bites got infected.

The vet prescribed oral antibiotics and pain killers, the bill was a hundred bucks, so my "affordable" Puget got expensive fast.

Those are some very handsome critters by the way, NICE