New Black and White Eastern Garter Morph Found!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jeff B]

So, you still validate the "common sense" comment knowing full well everyone including myself is and was not privy to the facts you just laid out! There are a lot of people who don't even know what a hybrid is and some cant even spell the word. Taking that into consideration I don't know how Eddie and you can generalize and refer to the intelligent question of recognizing hybrids in w/c's as being "common sense". Anyway, we all see things differently and I am done with this thread. Thanks for the explanation, those facts are relatively new to me and I'm sure other members and visitors to the page about how state location plays a role in hybridization? I think the original question can be answered when I "continue my reading" and research. No pun intended.

Albert it is probably a good idea to do your research and homework BEFORE going off on a thread like this. The term hybrid is used to describe a breeding of two different species of snakes that would never meet in the wild, hence would be done deliberately in captivity. The term intergrade is used to describe when two species or subspecies ranges overlap and occasionally would mix breed in the wild.
So, to use the term hybrid was a bit of a misnomer on your part, considering it was a wild caught, unless you are challenging the validity of the story behind how this snake arose from the wild, which i doubt was your intent.
The chance of it being an intergrade is also ZERO because there is not intergrade possibility in the range where this snake was found.
There are no two snake species or subspecies that would even have traits that would lend to the look of this snake and as Steve pointed out captive hybrids have shown to produce plain jane duds.
With all that background it is why I posted chance of hybrid=0 and for most in the hobby for years this seems like common sense.
Also, the extreme look of this snake lends me to believe that it is likely a genetic mutation where the pigments that produce colors other than black and white are repressed or defective at some stage of the biochemical pathway that produces them. What I don't know is if the white is up-regulated or is a new product resulting from mutation, or if it is just background that is always underneath the other colors. I suspect the first theory. It is likely this is a simple recessive mutation, because vast majority of garter morph mutations are.
All this is speculation at this point and will need to be proven out in subsequent years, so relax, be patient and enjoy the hobby.

[guidofatherof5]

So, you still validate the "common sense" comment knowing full well a lot of people, including myself is and was not privy to the facts you just laid out! There are a lot of people who don't even know what a hybrid is and some cant even spell the word. Taking that into consideration I don't know how Eddie and you can generalize and refer to the intelligent question of recognizing hybrids in w/c's as being "common sense". Anyway, we all see things differently and I am done with this thread. Thanks for the explanation, those facts are relatively new to me and I'm sure other members and visitors to the page about how state location plays a role in hybridization? I think the original question can be answered when I "continue my reading" and research. No pun intended.

I didn't say State location plays a part in hybridization and it doesn't. Knowing what State the snake in question was from and knowing that States native garter snake species does.

[AntTheDestroyer]

Albert, although Eddie's comment did have a sense of condescension, getting upset is not the best way to get the answers you seek. Thanks Steve and Jeff for the explanation, I think sometimes it is easy to forget that what seems like common knowledge to more experienced members is not so often true for us new folks.

[Jeff B]

It's funny Albert, because years ago I stepped into the same thing when I posted that a wild caught garter that Shannon Hammer had found looked like a cross between a garter and a delays based on how it looked, and boy did that set off fireworks, lol.
So don't feel bad, there are no dumb questions and everything is up for debate/ discussion, that is how we get to the best answers.

[Eddie]

WOW, First debate I ever started and it was by accident! LOL

[Jeff B]

• My guy, found me a young adult male only a few hundred feet from where the black and white female was found. I thought the black and white might be a male when I first got her due to her size but the tail had me confused. She is now eating two small mice at a time and has grown a lot since I got here and is pretty clearly a female to me. Got the male earlier this week and pretty sure he is male and hopefully might get lucky that he is a carrier for the black and white gene. Either way he will make great new breeding stock.

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[Albert Clark]

Congrats on the acquisition! I can't wait to see the offspring and what they will look like.

[Jeff B]

Thanks Al, I am hoping that the offspring produced would contain half that look just like mom and half that look normal. The other possibility is that all offspring just look normal but carry the gene from mom. Both of those possibilities assume that it is a recessive gene and only difference is weather or not the male is a carrier/het. The third possibility is that they produce "inbetweeners" and the gene behaves similar to the erythristic genes. I guess either way i just hope it is genetic and reproducible, even if it takes me two generations to prove it out.

[BUSHSNAKE]

ive been breeding for about 20 years and Jeff you could easily be breeding garters for the next 10 years. 2 generations aint nothing. that's why morphs have value cuz people put in a lot of time and effort into new projects, just be glad you don't work with galapogas tortoises lol. youll be looking back at it and remember how fun it was to have an opportunity to prove something out

[Eddie]

Joe. Very true
Jeff, I wish you the best of luck!!