I have fed my Garter/Ribbon Goldfish for 13 years. Is Thiaminase a problem?

[DrKate]

The Bluegill has been in the freezer so long that it is rather freezer-burned, almost like freeze-dried.

It shouldn't be unsafe in any immediate sense, but sub-optimal freezing does degrade the nutritional content of the fish. Vitamin E is the thing that you'd be most worried about there. It would be easy to just puncture a vitamin E capsule and drip some on the food before you feed it, but I've got no idea what an adequate/safe supplement level is. There's also a general vitamin powder available that you could dust the food with, that might do the trick.

Sometimes I feed a few (not many, and not often) bites of Tuna that cling to the can when we make Tuna-salad, is that ok?

Canned tuna is processed with a lot of salt, which the snake wouldn't normally get. I honestly don't know if it has the right kind of thirst response to deal with that safely. Unless you think the snake *really* likes it as a treat, it would be better to avoid altogether.

Three times I have fed about a half-dozen bites of canned cat food cut in half

Your call. There's a well-known garter hobbyist/expert that advocates feeding cat food as a staple diet. Pretty much everyone else thinks it's a terrible idea: http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/husb...tml#post110759

In the past this snake has also eaten bits of beef, beef-heart, chicken, frozen-thawed jack-rabbit, and partially canibalized mouse fuzzies.

Those are probably all fine as part of a varied diet. I think the consensus is that garters are pretty opportunistic in the wild. BUT you should remember that any meat (strips of meat, without the bones and guts of whole prey) is going to be very deficient in calcium, including fish. So if most of your meals are bluegill fillet or strips of butchered meat, you should dip the items in calcium powder every couple of meals.

I saw on the list that Anchovies contain thiaminease; but what about the canned variety from the grocery store?

It's true that the canning process would inactivate thiaminase in anchovies and sardines, but again the salt (and oil) is not going to be good for the snake. Make some pizza, or throw 'em out - sorry!

[KITKAT]

This is a very interesting discussion. I try to feed my Wandering Garter snake as varied a diet as I can, but I still worry about thiaminase and thiamine deficency.

Sometimes I feed thawed cut up bits of frozen Bluegill. The Bluegill has been in the freezer so long that it is rather freezer-burned, almost like freeze-dried. When reconstituted with water, is this safe to feed? Or should I just throw the Bluegill out.

Frozen fish is safe and nutritious for six months. Bluegill is free of thiamin. Therefore, fish caught in August/September could be fed until February/March. With a little planning, you can cover almost the entire year. Depending on when you provide brumation for your snakes, you could begin again with fresh Bluegill early in the spring.

Sometimes I feed a few (not many, and not often) bites of Tuna that cling to the can when we make Tuna-salad, is that ok?

Tuna has a problem that is different from thiaminase, but similar. Tuna is known to be deficient in vitamin E. Further, Tuna is packed in salty water or oil. I would not feed canned tuna to my snakes. However, if Tuna is known to be free of thiaminase, and if you have access to affordable sushi, you might feed raw tuna once in a great while. (Raw salmon is free of thiaminase, and is the staple fish that I use for feeding).

Three times I have fed about a half-dozen bites of canned cat food cut in half, after our cat has lapped up the liquid and rejected the solids. Is this safe?

I have fed cat food to a baby that refused to eat, but I would strongly advise against it on a normal basis.

In the past this snake has also eaten bits of beef, beef-heart, chicken, frozen-thawed jack-rabbit, and partially canibalized mouse fuzzies.

raw meats and mouse parts are typical diets for garters.

The stores that sell goldfish and rosy reds are well over one-hundred miles away, so I do not feed those very often, and worry the whole time about thiaminase. Maybe stores should consider selling bluegill, crappie, pumpkinseed, or other sunfish fry as safer feeders.

All of these species are thiaminase safe, but the fry will have spines in their dorsal fins, which would be dangerous for the garter to ingest. strips of bluegill would be safe, but not available as a live food, of course.

I saw on the list that Anchovies contain thiaminease; but what about the canned variety from the grocery store? Presumably, they were cooked during the canning process. One can of Anchovies and one can of Sardines have been sitting in the refridgerator since before my father passed on, three years ago (no one else in the family eats them). Could I offer them to my garter, or should I just throw them out?

Canned anchovies/sardines contain oil and are smoked. They are not safe for your garter due to the flavorings that are added during processing.

To keep your bluegill from freezer burn, freeze each fish in a ziplock bag that contains water. The water will encase the fish, and prevent dehydration from the freezer - this will make them last the six months you need to have a supply most of the year.

[Frédérick]

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but thiaminase can be denatured by heating the fish to 80 degrees C in water for 5 minutes.

Tim

That's very interesting, if someone was in a bad situation with feeder availability for some time, this should be regarded, as well as B1 supplementation (say moderate amounts but frequent, over a period of months?) i guess this way the thiaminase present in the garter would eventually ''fade out'', which can take a good while and the snake would have some B1 to absorb over time, given the heating trick does a very good job at denaturing the enzyme in the subsequent feeders...food for thought!

[Jimyd]

Hey again, was busy with college and stuff and the thread took awhile to get approved.

I'll try to get some pics when I can.

Best bet for me would be to feed him pinky mice since there is not really any local petstores I know of that sell un-thiaminase fish. Petco and Petsmart are really my only options.

Although the snake(don't know if male/female) does not really go for things already dead.

@Previouscoments: Yeah Petstore employees really don't know anything, unless it is about a dog or a cat.

But my original question still stands, would I start to see any thiaminase related health developments after all these years. BTW this snake was an addition to two wild caught alligator lizards with one caught up by stampede lake and the caught by my dad near a water treatment plant for the county way back when,[they lasted for 7-10(i'll have to find my old photo pics that have the exact dates on them) years] which has outlasted both of them.

How long should I expect one of these snakes to live for assuming no problems arise?

Also when I caught the snake it was already about 1 foot long exactly and my lizards were already between 2-3 years old at the time when snake was added(thats adding in estimated time based on their size from approximate wild birth, lizards were probably one years each when I put them in a tank with the second one caught about half a year older than the first).

Sorry for the little tangent there, but maybe this snake somehow has a higher tolerance to the thiamine defficiency because of its history of being a wild caught snake?

Would love to hear more of your guys/gals theory on it. I'll try to have pics next time I post. BTW there is no red in the snake, just what i said before. No blues either.

[jitami]

Hi, I'm also in the Sacramento area and you're right, it's nearly impossible to find appropriate live fish for your garter here. However, you should be able to switch it over to either frozen thawed mice or frozen thawed fish rather easily. Petco has both mice and silversides or you could go to the grocery store and get a salmon or trout fillet and slice it into appropriate sized strips. Just put a couple of the live fish that he's used to in a small bowl of water with the dead(frozen thawed) prey item and he's very likely to hit the dead prey item and swallow it. Usually you only need to do this a couple of times and they'll readily accept your prefered food.

Sorry if this has all been mentioned... didn't read through the entire thread again.