shoot...

[Stefan-A]

Many times I've had Garters breed without hibernating them. Sometimes more than once in a year!

Mine, for example. They mated anyway, haven't seen any offspring.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

As I continue to read on, I clearly see that ignorance is bliss. I do not mean to be rude, but it seems there are some people who post questions for advice, but only really respond to the answers they wanted to hear in the first place.
The ethical and moral solution to this problem, however unfortunate, is to put these intergrades down. Any other decision leaves the future integrity of captive and wild genetic lines at risk.

So, all of you who are ready to adopt with your promises not to breed or release, you compassion is misplaced in this particular case. We are all only human; and even the most good-natured souls will make mistakes (as we have already heard... Sorry Tina).

Honestly,

Steven
HumboldtHerps.com - Index

[Stefan-A]

Well said, Steven.

[jeanette]

I disagree, Too me it would be a case of every crossbreed in the world being destroyed. Every mongrel dog every non purebred cat. how about every mixed race person. im sorry if that goes against the people who believe that the pure bred things are the way to go..............Garter keeping is not a Nazi occupation to be concerned with all thats pure.

[gregmonsta]

I'd have to aggree with that. In fact lets annihilate all livestock as it wouldn't exist in its current variety without selective human interferance.

[mycolorfulheart]

Wasn't the point brought up earlier that any garter that's let loose in a non-native environment could cause damage? Not just these garters? Garters aren't even found naturally in Europe, but we are all trusting the European members to keep their snakes and not release them into the wild. (Alien species can sometimes destroy an environment, and all it needs start with is 2 snakes.) It's the same situation here. I can understand why someone would want to freeze/feed them instead of taking a chance and trusting another member. But we've all taken the responsibility as pet owners to do what's right by our animals and the local pop--these just come with special instructions: Don't breed!

[jeanette]

Wasn't the point brought up earlier that any garter that's let loose in a non-native environment could cause damage? Not just these garters? Garters aren't even found naturally in Europe, but we are all trusting the European members to keep their snakes and not release them into the wild. (Alien species can sometimes destroy an environment, and all it needs start with is 2 snakes.) It's the same situation here. I can understand why someone would want to freeze/feed them instead of taking a chance and trusting another member. But we've all taken the responsibility as pet owners to do what's right by our animals and the local pop--these just come with special instructions: Don't breed!

100 percent correct and any sensible owner can concur with those rules

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Whoah! I think some of us are missing the point. I am not at all criticizing the natural mixing of gene pools; but the key word is "natural". I am also completely aware of how man has manipulated gene pools (animal & plant) within the domesticated arena for over the last (let's say) 6,000 years (at least). I personally love mongrels; they are intelligent and usu. genetically healthier. I think mixed race humans are some of the most beautiful people on Earth. Oh, let's not forget that humans were the ones who started selectively breeding the different races of dogs (and other animals). Please remember, the known subspecies of the sirtalis complex are all naturally occurring (not selectively bred... and let' please not start!)

One could argue that: humans have been messing things up from day one!
But that does not present solutions for the present. I sympathize with all animals' plights, esp. where they occur by the hands of Homo sapiens. Every situation is different. In nature, the effects of our intereference (whether we think we are doing good or we are just there to rape the land...) are often unpredictable, because there are SO MANY variables and intertwined relationships.

Specifically in the case of these garter intergrades (and they are so pretty, who wouldn't want them!)- Two unbordered subspecies have reintegrated their unique genetics and have muddled the line. If they escape or are captively bred, the tainting will spread.
The moral question is "Do we let compassion risk contamination?" This isn't about pure races. This is a two-fold argument. This is (1) about crosses that would not naturally occur in nature, and (2) more to the point, can you trust your fellow man?

Please note, that if every human could be kept at his or her word, I would not have a problem with anyone adopting these snakes! I have not shook hands with any correspondants from this forum... In reality, I do not know who any of you are. It is beautiful that we can all share here. But trust..... TRUST HAS TO BE EARNED.

[adamanteus]

This worries me.
I can see the fate of the likes of tetrateania... you know... that dull, coffee coloured snake that used to live in San Fran.
Look at the Scottish Wild Cat... irredeemably close to extinction now. Why? Habitat destruction? No. Persecution? No. Over collecting? No.
Inbreeding with a massive population of feral cats? Correct. Wild Cats are now just a bunch of moggies. The original Wild Cat will never come back, we've (almost) lost it through careless/accidental inbreeding.
If nature chooses to cross-breed species, that's fine. But we, as 'responsible' keepers must avoid it. If we make a mistake we must take action to remedy it. If we adopt this 'anything goes' attitude, just because babies are cute, a hundred years from now all Garters will be brown, with some checkered markings if you're lucky.
This has nothing at all to do with racism, or political correctness. It is our duty NOT TO INTERFERE with natures choices.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

This worries me.
I can see the fate of the likes of tetrateania... you know... that dull, coffee coloured snake that used to live in San Fran.
Look at the Scottish Wild Cat... irredeemably close to extinction now. Why? Habitat destruction? No. Persecution? No. Over collecting? No.
Inbreeding with a massive population of feral cats? Correct. Wild Cats are now just a bunch of moggies. The original Wild Cat will never come back, we've (almost) lost it through careless/accidental inbreeding.
If nature chooses to cross-breed species, that's fine. But we, as 'responsible' keepers must avoid it. If we make a mistake we must take action to remedy it. If we adopt this 'anything goes' attitude, just because babies are cute, a hundred years from now all Garters will be brown, with some checkered markings if you're lucky.
This has nothing at all to do with racism, or political correctness. It is our duty NOT TO INTERFERE with natures choices.

I wholeheartedly concur!