My new garter(s)

[mikem]

I've been reading and rereading everything you typed out. Basically, there's no way to be completely sure on the subspecies I may have here. I wouldn't mind working with a little fitchi or concinnus project, but don't want to create hybrids. Perhaps it's best if these two don't mate and just keep them as pets.

[EasternGirl]

If you aren't absolutely positive as to the subspecies, it's probably a good idea.

[mikem]

yea, that's pretty much my conclusion after a good night sleep. i never expected the big confusion when i purchased them! i just assumed they were concinnus because that's what the vendor had them labeled as. i wasn't even aware of the subspecies that look so similiar. i've learned a ton since posting this thread, thanks to everyone here, especially ConcinnusMan! i actually found him and these forums by doing some googling about red spotted garters. i sent him a pm asking for some help and he has shared a plethora of information here! big thanks for that!!

these two will have to just get over the fact that they're pets they're very pretty, no matter what they may be. that's why i bought them in the first place.

there's so many attractive garters out there, i'm sure i'll find some to work with that won't be so confusing to identify!

[ConcinusMan]

I've been reading and rereading everything you typed out. Basically, there's no way to be completely sure on the subspecies I may have here.

Pretty much. However, knowing the exact location could rule out one or the other. On the one hand, the heads look very much like concinnus, and on the other hand, there are many fitchi traits. According to the book "Reptiles of the Northwest", concinnus' found in some areas outside the Willamette Valley, have many "fitchi like" traits.

Why can't it be simple? Because we don't know where the snakes were found. Location, location, location.

I'm not sure if your seller just rounds them up and sells them right away or what, but my policy has always been to keep them at least 90 days before selling or giving them away. During that time I watch for health issues, make sure they're eating well, and most importantly, I treat them thoroughly for internal parasites. This requires two different medications and several weeks to treat. This is because the medication that rids them of tapeworms has no effect on roundworms, flukes, etc. and visa-versa.

Because of the wild diet consisting of fish, frogs, newts, etc. it's all but guaranteed that WC concinnus carry a parasite load. I highly recommend that you treat them for internal parasites. They will do much better in captivity if you do that. They'll gain weight, eat better, have better immunity against illness, and live longer. They can live years in the wild with parasites but often times in captivity the parasites get out of hand and their health suffers. If you can get them to a vet to get this done, I suggest you do it.

[ConcinusMan]

Check out this thread from a while back. Note the second picture. Looks a lot like your snakes, and it is a concinnus. The snakes pictured were found at the mouth of the Columbia River, on the coast of Oregon and/or WA. That rules out fitchi. So, flip, flop, concinnus, fitchi.

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/gene...n-garters.html

[mikem]

thanks for the advice! i'll look into it. i know they have been ltc for a few months at least. the vendor had two babies that my male and the other scarred female produced earlier in 2011.

[mikem]

haha @ that post!

do all garters run into this issue with identifying them? or is it just concinnus and fitchi?

[chris-uk]

Some garters are cut and dry, positively identifiable - I think T. equis cuitzeoensis are difficult to mistake for anything else. And something like a T. cyrtopsis ocelatis (off top of my head, have I got that right for an Eastern Blackneck) are unmistakable.

[ConcinusMan]

If you do some forum searching you'll see that this isn't the first thread where we had a hard time figuring this out. The trouble lies in not knowing where the snake came from. I would say that for the most part, there isn't much trouble in identifying most other garter species. It's just that concinnus' can look very much like fitchi in certain areas outside the Willamette Valley, and both subspecies occur in WA and OR. That's where exact location info comes in handy. Like I said several times before, location rules out one or the other in cases where a concinnus looks like a fitchi.

Concinnus' are much more variable than most people think. There is much more variation when they are found outside the Willamette Valley. I don't know if you've seen them or not, but in 2009 I found a location in Oregon that is home to populations of concinnus' that are highly variable, and even include snakes that lack red or orange, and are even blue. When I posted pics of them, I was surprised to find out that this color variation was unknown by most people before that.

Before the recent forum overhaul we had a "wiki pages" section where I posted pics of many very different variations. I can't find it now. Many of the variations I have found can be seen here: http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/gene...s-garters.html

Anyway, these below are another variation of concinnus found only in a small portion of their range in NW Oregon. Where they occur, there are many other color/pattern variations within the same population. Looking at the pictures alone, one would not tend to think these are concinnus' but since I know where they were found, and saw all the variations in the population, they couldn't be anything else but concinnus.

The most remarkable concinnus variation I've ever found. Blue Anerythristic morph:




And then there's hypoerythristic (basically yellow)

[ConcinusMan]

Some garters are cut and dry, positively identifiable - I think T. equis cuitzeoensis are difficult to mistake for anything else. And something like a T. cyrtopsis ocelatis (off top of my head, have I got that right for an Eastern Blackneck) are unmistakable.

But there are some mexican cyrtopsis type species that can be difficult to identify.