I have fed my Garter/Ribbon Goldfish for 13 years. Is Thiaminase a problem?

[drache]

I see absolutely no reason or excuse to ever use a thiaminase containing fish when there are already other things available that are totally safe without any additives!

I don't really either, but if I had a snake that only eats live fish, and I was on the brink of death with the flu and had to depend on others to buy feeders from a petshop for me . . . it's happened - thankfully I've not stayed ill long enough to make supplementation an issue

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I don't really either, but if I had a snake that only eats live fish, and I was on the brink of death with the flu and had to depend on others to buy feeders from a petshop for me . . . it's happened - thankfully I've not stayed ill long enough to make supplementation an issue

same here! (elephant trunk snake)

but now thankfully I have a source of live not-goldfish!

[jamromhem]

Identification?
It was sold as a minnow, so before I go chucking this in my enclosure i want to know if this little guy and his buddies are going to end up as a meal or as a scent applicator!!!

I have the same fish that I picked up with the same information. They were sold as minnows.. I have fed them to mine for about a week now with no problems (other than her sitting in her hollow being a lazy priss) She comes out only after I wake her up by throwing a fish on top of her.

I am thinking about scenting a pinkie with it to try to convince her to eat a pinkie day after tomorrow.. She ate today already so tomorrow she will be fine.

Short term I see no problems with them..

I think their common name is "shiner" which does contain that nasty T word (or has been found to). Short term I don't think there is a problem with this fish, but for the price of a 1lb of salmon depending on the size of your snake it could last a long time and reduce the concern, then you just have to get some calcium in the diet some where.

So what you showed is very similar to a goldfish, but for 24 for around 3 dollars, not a bad buy for a temporary feed.

[DrKate]

Identification?

Well... You haven't gotten anyone jumping forward with a positive ID, here... I guess the best I can say is it's not a guppy. It does resemble a rosy red: Robyn's Rosy Red Page. Same general body shape, same fin count & placement. Maybe an aquarists' forum would give you a better ID? (Incidentally, toward the bottom of that page I linked to, the author mentions people sending them pictures for ID... I can't vouch for their qualifications or anything, but you could try sending your pic there.)

The plain or golden white cloud minnows I've seen in fish stores also look similar, I think they're sometimes sold as feeders too.

I've seen everything from "rosy reds have as much thiaminase as goldfish" to "rosy reds are fine" (on someone's garter care sheet no less!). But never any actual scientific sources for the claims, of course. Much less info in general about white clouds, but they're cyprinids too so the safest guess is that they also have the potential to contain thiaminase.

[bsol]

Better to be safe than sorry!!!

[Millinex]

I know these are a problem in snakes, however I would like to raise the question of is this a known problem in lizards as well? My bait shop sells shiners and they would be great for my nile monitor to vary his diet, but they contain thiaminase. Not sure if niles being such scavengers care or not, or if it will make a huge difference with the staple being mice.

[DrKate]

I know these are a problem in snakes, however I would like to raise the question of is this a known problem in lizards as well?

Hey Mike, I was just looking back at this thread to get some info and I noticed that nobody answered your question.

My understanding is that thiaminase (or more importantly, thiamine-deficient food) is a problem for any species. There must be variation in how sensitive various predator species are, though, because in nature somebody has to prey on all those minnows and anchovies and whatnot.

At any rate, the short answer is I don't know - I haven't seen anything one way or the other about lizards, and it's always possible that they're really sensitive and would have a problem after just one thiamine-deficient meal. I suspect that the occasional live shiner for variety and behavioral enrichment won't harm your lizard, as long as the rest of his diet is nutritionally complete. (If you're dusting any of his prey with vitamin powder then you're very likely OK because that contains thiamine!) But I really can't say for sure.

[Millinex]

Hey Mike, I was just looking back at this thread to get some info and I noticed that nobody answered your question.

My understanding is that thiaminase (or more importantly, thiamine-deficient food) is a problem for any species. There must be variation in how sensitive various predator species are, though, because in nature somebody has to prey on all those minnows and anchovies and whatnot.

At any rate, the short answer is I don't know - I haven't seen anything one way or the other about lizards, and it's always possible that they're really sensitive and would have a problem after just one thiamine-deficient meal. I suspect that the occasional live shiner for variety and behavioral enrichment won't harm your lizard, as long as the rest of his diet is nutritionally complete. (If you're dusting any of his prey with vitamin powder then you're very likely OK because that contains thiamine!) But I really can't say for sure.

Yes I did indeed research into this pretty well. It affects fish and lizards both. A few now and then do not harm the lizard and he will be fine, as long as it isn't staple. I just managed to buy a fishing rod and liscence and catch a few worms. Fillet of bluegill/bass is so much better and easy to get.

[Snakey Lakey]

This is a very interesting discussion. I try to feed my Wandering Garter snake as varied a diet as I can, but I still worry about thiaminase and thiamine deficency.

Sometimes I feed thawed cut up bits of frozen Bluegill. The Bluegill has been in the freezer so long that it is rather freezer-burned, almost like freeze-dried. When reconstituted with water, is this safe to feed? Or should I just throw the Bluegill out.

Surprisingly, I have found that my snake prefers rat pinkies, that are less than 1 day old, over mouse pinkies, even fish scented mouse pinkies.

Sometimes I feed a few (not many, and not often) bites of Tuna that cling to the can when we make Tuna-salad, is that ok?

Three times I have fed about a half-dozen bites of canned cat food cut in half, after our cat has lapped up the liquid and rejected the solids. Is this safe?

In the past this snake has also eaten bits of beef, beef-heart, chicken, frozen-thawed jack-rabbit, and partially canibalized mouse fuzzies.

The stores that sell goldfish and rosy reds are well over one-hundred miles away, so I do not feed those very often, and worry the whole time about thiaminase. Maybe stores should consider selling bluegill, crappie, pumpkinseed, or other sunfish fry as safer feeders.

I saw on the list that Anchovies contain thiaminease; but what about the canned variety from the grocery store? Presumably, they were cooked during the canning process. One can of Anchovies and one can of Sardines have been sitting in the refridgerator since before my father passed on, three years ago (no one else in the family eats them). Could I offer them to my garter, or should I just throw them out?

[guidofatherof5]

Most processed, in this case canned food are high in sodium and other things. They are also cooked. Garters need raw food. The benefits they may offer, lets say a cat are not designed for Garters. They may eat it but that doesn't mean it's good for them. Look at some of the junk we eat and know it's bad for us(hotdogs, bacon, etc.)
I think I would steer away from those items and stick with many of the other natural food you are offering.
The nice thing about the bullgill you are offering is any parasites should be dead. I'm not sure what affect freezer burn may have on the nutritional value of the fish. I might have to check on that one.