Hybrid Photo Thread

[ChareiHeals]

This was awesome. It made me laugh.

This thread has pictures of hybrids

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/gene...t-baggage.html

[BUSHSNAKE]

i posted a picture of concinnus x parietalis somewhere on this forum

[ConcinusMan]

This thread has pictures of hybrids

http://www.thamnophis.com/forum/gene...t-baggage.html

And there you go. If the albino checkered got away what can he do to ensure that none of these babies get loose? It's a good thing he found her before she had babies.

And that brings up another question. Obviously just one purebred non-native garter getting loose where other garters occur is apparently enough to get hybrids in the wild. So the question then is, is it a good idea to keep non natives at all? What if they get loose and hybridize with the locals? Would it really have any impact on the local genepool or would dilution and natural selection take care of eliminating the impact or even make it a positive impact? Look what happened with human beings. We interbred with neanderthals but natural selection and dilution made it so that the impact didn't really change us but it did add immunity to diseases. We now only carry the "good" Neanderthal genes. The ones that made us better off, not worse off.

I guess what I'm trying to say , is it even possible for a few escaped snakes/hybrids to have anything but a very temporary and insignificant negative impact? Wouldn't natural selection "fix" the gene pool eventually anyway?

[d_virginiana]

Excluding areas where hybrids and integrades naturally occur in small numbers (like I imagine there are more than a couple sirtalis/similis integrades in Florida) I'd say it probably wouldn't have ANY long term effect on wild populations. Unless a very large number of non-native garters escaped and successfully bred with the natives, there would likely be no long-term change in local genetics.
Considering how closely related most garter species and subspecies are, there probably aren't a lot of specific characteristics that would be selected for in a hybrid. Assuming that is the case, after a few generations, statistics say random genetic walk or 'drift' should eliminate those incredibly uncommon genes from the wild gene pool. There's a possibility that some of them would hang around, but they would likely be nonfunctional, and probably nothing that we could even identify on a phenotypic level.

Still, it's better safe than sorry.

[Stefan-A]

So the question then is, is it a good idea to keep non natives at all?

No.

What if they get loose and hybridize with the locals?

Reduced fitness, possible collapse of the local population and possible domino effect starting with species that depended on it.

Would it really have any impact on the local genepool

Yes.

or would dilution and natural selection take care of eliminating the impact or even make it a positive impact?

No.

Look what happened with human beings.

Look at what happened with neanderthals (H. neanderthalensis was also a human, humans aren't just H. sapiens).

We interbred with neanderthals but natural selection and dilution made it so that the impact didn't really change us but it did add immunity to diseases.

What's "dilution"? Anyway, we're still finding out what effect it had, it's far too early to draw any conclusions or make any generalizations. For all we know, we can thank that interbreeding for an increased risk of a few types of cancer, diabetes and a whole range of allergies. Too early to tell, pointless to speculate.

We now only carry the "good" Neanderthal genes.

You don't know that.

The ones that made us better off, not worse off.

You don't know that, either. And don't forget, instead of two species of human, there's now just one. You have a loss of biodiversity there, not an increase.

I guess what I'm trying to say , is it even possible for a few escaped snakes/hybrids to have anything but a very temporary and insignificant negative impact?

Yes. It is. And it's something people working with conservation keep trying to get people to understand. For example, there is a thing called outbreeding depression. There's also a reason why sympatric species and subspecies that can interbreed, won't, and why all species capable of interbreeding don't just blend into one.

Wouldn't natural selection "fix" the gene pool eventually anyway?

What does "fix" mean? Do you know how natural selection (pardon the anthropomorphism) "fixes" things?

[d_virginiana]

There would still have to be a fairly large number of non-native Thamnophis introduced into an area for it to affect the long-term gene pool of a population, assuming they don't have some amazing super gene that gets highly selected for.
Think about what you said one of the main consequences would be; reduced fitness. If one or even a couple hybrid litters of reduced fitness end up in the wild, assuming they are selected against or neutrally, then it would not take long for genetic drift to remove those genes from the population.

[Greg'sGarters]

And there you go. If the albino checkered got away what can he do to ensure that none of these babies get loose? It's a good thing he found her before she had babies.

And that brings up another question. Obviously just one purebred non-native garter getting loose where other garters occur is apparently enough to get hybrids in the wild. So the question then is, is it a good idea to keep non natives at all? What if they get loose and hybridize with the locals? Would it really have any impact on the local genepool or would dilution and natural selection take care of eliminating the impact or even make it a positive impact? Look what happened with human beings. We interbred with neanderthals but natural selection and dilution made it so that the impact didn't really change us but it did add immunity to diseases. We now only carry the "good" Neanderthal genes. The ones that made us better off, not worse off.

I guess what I'm trying to say , is it even possible for a few escaped snakes/hybrids to have anything but a very temporary and insignificant negative impact? Wouldn't natural selection "fix" the gene pool eventually anyway?

I was talking to Steve on Skype about this before. It would be unlikely for a snake to escape and get into another snake's cage* and hybridize, so your collection would be safe, but if it got out in the wild, wouldn't a hybrid cause just as much as, if not less damage than another purebred species/subspecies getting loose?

*Although there have been 3 instances where garters of mine had escaped and I had found them on top of my female eastern's cage. All but 1 escapees have been found on her cage after I caught her. She's like the Megan Fox of garters, she attracts garters and ribbons!

[Stefan-A]

There would still have to be a fairly large number of non-native Thamnophis introduced into an area for it to affect the long-term gene pool of a population, assuming they don't have some amazing super gene that gets highly selected for.
Think about what you said one of the main consequences would be; reduced fitness. If one or even a couple hybrid litters of reduced fitness end up in the wild, assuming they are selected against or neutrally, then it would not take long for genetic drift to remove those genes from the population.

Assuming there isn't some amazing super gene, that allows the carrier to outcompete the others, which in itself would constitute a loss. I'd also like to point out, that what may offer a short term advantage may well be a long term disadvantage.

[BLUESIRTALIS]

Megan fox is hot! Hey wait, if you guy's don't hear from me again my wife killed me.

i was talking to steve on skype about this before. It would be unlikely for a snake to escape and get into another snake's cage* and hybridize, so your collection would be safe, but if it got out in the wild, wouldn't a hybrid cause just as much as, if not less damage than another purebred species/subspecies getting loose?

*although there have been 3 instances where garters of mine had escaped and i had found them on top of my female eastern's cage. All but 1 escapees have been found on her cage after i caught her. She's like the megan fox of garters, she attracts garters and ribbons!

[d_virginiana]

I was talking to Steve on Skype about this before. It would be unlikely for a snake to escape and get into another snake's cage* and hybridize, so your collection would be safe, but if it got out in the wild, wouldn't a hybrid cause just as much as, if not less damage than another purebred species/subspecies getting loose?

*Although there have been 3 instances where garters of mine had escaped and I had found them on top of my female eastern's cage. All but 1 escapees have been found on her cage after I caught her. She's like the Megan Fox of garters, she attracts garters and ribbons!

I would say any amount of non-native genetics getting into the wild population would be the concern. A hybrid could be more or less of an issue than a purebred in this case. For example, if you had a concinnus get loose in eastern territory, those genes would have a higher likelihood of getting passed on and crossing into the local eastern population, at least for a few generations. But if you had a concinnus/eastern hybrid get loose it may be more likely to mate with the native easterns than a purebred concinnus, and therefore more likely to pass on the non-native genes.

IMO hybrids are more of a danger to the hobby than ecology... Any escaped snake of a non-native species has the potential to mess things up. Though I doubt non-native garters would have the sorts of advantages (or be released in large enough numbers) to permanently affect a gene pool.

Assuming there isn't some amazing super gene, that allows the carrier to outcompete the others, which in itself would constitute a loss. I'd also like to point out, that what may offer a short term advantage may well be a long term disadvantage.

Agreed. I personally doubt that 'super gene' would show up, given how similar most Thamnophis are, but you never know. It's always better to prevent that sort of problem than worry about it after it appears.