Ranch News

[ConcinusMan]

And with San Frans it's federal law, not state laws you'd be breaking. Someone state-side who knows the laws protecting tetrataenia can probably expand on my basic understanding.

Exactly. San Frans are protected by the Federal Endangered Species Act. No matter what U.S. state you are in when caught, it is enforceable. You will have to go to Federal court and if you're sentenced to do any time it will be in a Federal facility. Penalties for possessing an endangered species are severe.

State laws are different and only enforceable within the State. For example, Pugets have never been legal to collect in WA and the south end of Puget Sound in WA is the only place where the blues occur and yet they openly available in the pet trade. All pugets in the pet trade were collected illegally or are descended from illegally collected animals.(as far as the state is concerned, CB descendants are also illegal to possess) However, it's the collector or person possessing them within the state of WA who is subject to enforcement. Once that snake leaves the state, the law is unenforceable. Someone in say, Iowa can receive a WC puget and not be breaking any law. That person won't be subject to enforcement or get in any trouble so long as he is not breaking any laws of his state. State penalties for possessing said snake within the state are fairly light too, compared to Federal penalties for possessing an endangered species.

Bottom line Jwolfe, it's very illegal to possess a SF garter anywhere in the U.S. or it's territories. If you simply receive a non-endangered snake illegally collected and shipped out of another state, they can't touch you.

There is no "legal" way to have one here in the States. Unless you are a zoo that has written permission.

I read an article recently that said zoos didn't keep up with captive breeding and eventually not even the SF zoo had any SF garters for several years. Well, they do now and the snakes came from the Netherlands. The zoos are allowed to have them but cannot get them from the wild. It's still unclear to me if they are even allowed to breed them in captivity but I think it's probable that the answer is no. I think the SF zoo is the only zoo that is even allowed to have them but they get them from CB stock out of the Netherlands.

[guidofatherof5]

Any idea how old that article is Richard? A couple years ago I tried to barter a trade of S.F. garters for the European Garter Snake Association. I contacted the S.F. Zoo and spoke to the person in charge of their S.F. garter program. To make a long story short a trade would have done the E.G.S.A. no good as the captive bloodline the zoo had is the bloodline from Europe(Netherlands) At the time of my call they had no native T. s. tetrataenia (San Francisco garter snake). The guy I spoke to said they were working with the Gov. to get any injured snake sent to the zoo for rehab and possible breeding.

[jwolfe152]

ok wow i for some dumb *** reason i thought it was only state endangered not federally but i have not looked into it much so...but thanks for the info i know a little more than yesterday now

[ConcinusMan]

ok wow i for some dumb *** reason i thought it was only state endangered not federally but i have not looked into it much so...but thanks for the info i know a little more than yesterday now

Nope. They're Federally listed. However, marcianus is on California's state threatened list. That's the main reason that garters are illegal to collect in Riverside County. There's only a small but stable population of checkered garters in California, in east Riverside county. They can only be found in an oasis/riparian zone habitat out there in the middle of the desert.

And Steve, this is what I was talking about. "The captive population, once thriving in the 1990's, went extinct in 2003 when the last remaining snake in captivity died at the San Francisco Zoo, where they were once considered the jewels of the collection." I do believe they are back at the zoo now and the snakes they have now were imported from the Netherlands. Genetically speaking they are useless for breed and release but for zoo specimens/education they are perfect since they can't collect them from the wild to be kept permanently in captivity. The snakes in Europe are descended from the same captive snakes that the zoo allowed to go extinct in 2003 and those are descended from legally collected (by the zoo) snakes before they went on the endangered list in the 1960's.. Feature Stories, San Francisco Garter Snake Returns To Its Namesake City

[jwolfe152]

ok what if an individual had collected a handful of them in say the 50's (in the U.S.) and bred them and still has a good population of them would it still be illegal for him to have them or to sell them? i dont know anyone who has them its just an odd question that popped in my head

[guidofatherof5]

I don't think there is a "grandfather clause" for federally protected species.

[jwolfe152]

i done a google search for "Federally Protected species grandfather clause" and there is one according to this document on page one "https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...51156542,d.aWM" this link will download the document only

i dont know how official it is or if it only is in regards to primates

[ConcinusMan]

ok what if an individual had collected a handful of them in say the 50's (in the U.S.) and bred them and still has a good population of them would it still be illegal for him to have them or to sell them?

Yes. Once they were listed on the Federal endangered species list they became contraband for anyone posessing them in the U.S. or it's territories. The Problem is there's no way of knowing if that snake you have was illegally collected or if it is captive bred descendent of legally collected animals.

[guidofatherof5]

Nope. They're Federally listed. However, marcianus is on California's state threatened list. That's the main reason that garters are illegal to collect in Riverside County. There's only a small but stable population of checkered garters in California, in east Riverside county. They can only be found in an oasis/riparian zone habitat out there in the middle of the desert.

And Steve, this is what I was talking about. "The captive population, once thriving in the 1990's, went extinct in 2003 when the last remaining snake in captivity died at the San Francisco Zoo, where they were once considered the jewels of the collection." I do believe they are back at the zoo now and the snakes they have now were imported from the Netherlands. Genetically speaking they are useless for breed and release but for zoo specimens/education they are perfect since they can't collect them from the wild to be kept permanently in captivity. The snakes in Europe are descended from the same captive snakes that the zoo allowed to go extinct in 2003 and those are descended from legally collected (by the zoo) snakes before they went on the endangered list in the 1960's.. Feature Stories, San Francisco Garter Snake Returns To Its Namesake City

I have to take issue with that statement with regards to T. marcianus - Checkered garter.

According to this current pdf. They can be collected.

California Laws Regarding Reptiles and Amphibians

The following was cut and pasted from the regulation pdf above.

5.60. Reptiles. (Page 20-22)


(a) General Provisions: Only the following reptiles may be taken under the authority of a sportfishing license, subject to the restrictions in this section. No sportfishing license is required for the sport take of any rattlesnake, but bag and possession limits do apply. No reptiles shall be taken from ecological reserves designated by the commission in Section 630 or from state parks, or national parks or monuments.

(b) Limit: The limit for each of the species listed below is two, unless otherwise provided. Limit, as used in this section, means daily bag and possession limit.


(43) Common garter snake (Thamnophis sirtalis), except San Francisco garter snake (Thamnophis sirtalis tetrataenia) and South Coast garter snake (Thamnophis sirtalis sp.): See Special Closure (f )(10)
(44) Terrestrial garter snake (Thamnophis elegans)
(45) Western aquatic (Sierra) garter snake (Thamnophis couchii)
(46) Pacific coast aquatic garter snake (Thamnophis atratus)
(47) Northwestern garter snake (Thamnophis ordinoides)
(48) Checkered garter snake (Thamnophis marcianus)

This link also states that this snake in not list as a special concern.
Thamnophis marcianus marcianus - Marcy's Checkered Gartersnake

Conservation Status
The following status listings come from the Special Animals List which is published by the California Department of Fish and Wildlife. This snake is not included on the Special Animals List, which indicates that there are no significant conservation concerns for it in California.
Organization	Status Listing
U.S. Endangered Species Act (ESA)	None
California Endangered Species Act (CESA)	None
California Department of Fish and Wildlife	None
Bureau of Land Management	None
USDA Forest Service	None
Natureserve Global Conservation Status Ranks
World Conservation Union - IUCN Red List

[ConcinusMan]

That's odd that they even put it on the list. They only occur where it's not legal to collect garters, or any other reptile for that matter. It's illegal to collect any reptiles fro Riverside or San Diego counties. It's possible with the recent changes that marcianus is no longer considered threatened. However, unless riverside county lifted their ban on collecting reptiles, then it doesn't matter of California allows collecting them. If you can only find them in a county where collecting is illegal, then good luck collecting any legally.