Is this what it looks like?

[mb90078]

Great points aSLB. It's nice to see someone who can speak to both sides of an issue, even if they personally see it from one side. I really agree with your discussion of tetrataenia and infernalis. I would absolutely love to one day see their DNA mapped to see how closely they really are related. I would put a lot of money on them being almost genetically indistinguishable (wild ones this is, not the genetically deformed ones in captivity).


Also, those photos posted above really bring up an interesting question, is it really more moral (or even efficient) to create "that" than re-create a naturally occurring intergrade?

MasSalvaje, you can call me just "mb" or Mike if you like.

[chris-uk]

I really can't improve on the points that Lora has made (thanks Lora, I was looking to write a similar post but wanted to dive into some of my books first to check my facts), and Shannon makes some very good points as well.

I also agree with Mike about mapping the tetras and other sirtalis genomes, I'd probably go a step further and suggest that mapping the genome and engineering out defective genes would provide a more robust European tetra. That opens up the whole genetic modification debate. I don't have any moral or scientific issues with engineering to repair defective genes, but I will attempt to close off lengthy debate about it by saying that it will never happen because genome mapping and genetic manipulation is expensive and time-consuming, and nobody that would pay for it gives a rats sphincter about San Francisco garters.

I don't think there's much more I can contribute on this topic without circling back on ground we've covered.

[PINJOHN]

this has been a very enjoyable thread for me, when people take the time to get fully into a debate then you can't help but pick up info that you were previously unaware of, also once again one of thamnophis.com's characteristics has been demonstrated, a topic that divides opinion, YET no insults no blaspheming no sarcasm's, i love this site .
i was hoping that the thread had not run it's course and that others might have a view on this, as expected it did veer off course away from the future of the euro san fran and whether its desirable to have a pseudo san fran and into the more broader problems of american stock, but i have to say i was just as responsible for this as anyone else, and any way it made the thread even better,
a thread of this importance deserves it's own limerick [apologies it's a compulsion i have ]

just what should we do with the San Fran
is a question much studied of late
should we mess with his genes
by nefarious means
or leave this poor snake to his fate

[chris-uk]

just what should we do with the San Fran
is a question much studied of late
should we mess with his genes
by nefarious means
or leave this poor snake to his fate

Excellent summary of the topic.

[kimbosaur]

the truth is that keeping and breeding animals in a private collection does not contribute in any way to conservation of a species. They are ina private collection and will remain so. They are about as natural as the glass box they live in. Sure, maybe after they are all dead in the wild then you can cling to them a little longer but they will eventually die out in the hobby as well due to inbreeding. If we want to contribute to the conservation of species, then we support programs who actually do this by working to protect natural habitat and fend off destruction of it.

I totally agree with this point. Keeping these snakes as a pet, or in a private collection does nothing for conservation of species because there are too many factors that come into play. If we think of the European line as a man-made "pet-only" type species (i.e. not found in the wild), would that justify the inter-breeding? As in, since they are not being kept for conservation anyways, what is the harm in taking it for what it is? If you think about it, there are so many man-made pets: our dogs, cats, and goldfish are all "made" through selective breeding.

At the same time, when I think about hybridizing animals for pets, the first thing that comes to my mind is the Blood Parrot Cichlid. They are a highly hybridized "species" from Taiwan, and the exact "formula" is kept a secret (although there are many guesses as to how it's done). Most of the time, they are infertile so they can't usually breed with each other. Everything about them freaks me out. They are so deformed and weird looking, it just goes totally against nature. To make matters even worse, they have a "jelly-bean" version that literally has a deformed spine so that it's more compact. I would say that these would be an extreme "hybrid," but at least around here, they are super, super popular pets.

Now, the interbred tetras won't be/aren't on the same level as a squished-bodied, big-eyed, bird-fish with mouths that don't close, per se, but wouldn't accepting the act in this special situation just open doors for more hybrid man-made garters?

*Shudders* (not my picture):

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Ugh!!!!! Being a fish hobbyist I can totally relate to this... Those damned blood parrots are an absolute abomination!!! Everything about them is just sad. Their mouths don't even close properly... And have you seen the "heart" shaped form? This form is even more deformed... It is completely missing it's tail. Oh and then there are the sickos who take these poor fish a step further and dye them every color of the rainbow!!! some even tattoo them.... I know at our store, I refuse to carry any fish that has been painted, dyed, or tattooed.... I control the fish inventory...

[PINJOHN]

fish that are painted, dyed, and tattooed ??? has the world gone completely insane ??......wait don't tell me....i think i know the answer to this one

[kimbosaur]

Yes! I totally forgot about those "heart-shaped" ones. I've seen them tattooed with flowers on their sides too.

Again, not my picture:


But back to garter snakes, the point is, where is the line when it comes to human manipulation of natural species for the sake of a hobby? Because if you really think about it, that's what it's really about. How much is too much?

[MasSalvaje]

Actually, humans are pretty genetically diverse. We have a HUGE population base and thousands of morphological and genetic differences. 95% of that 98% we all share is also shared with chimpanzees. This is because most of the genome of any animal is made up of either large segments of 'junk' DNA (this can act as a sort of mutation safeguard; if DNA is damaged in a non-coding region like this, it won't affect the organism's viability) or conserved genes. Conserved genes are things that pertain to basic body formation (4 appendages, 2 eyes, organ systems, ect.) and protein production that is the same or similar in almost all vertebrates. Not trying to sound argumentative, but there really is no comparison between human genetic diversity and the issues facing the European Tetra stock right now.



Again, sorry for nit-picking, but that doesn't make a lot of sense. Yes, like Stefan said, there are certainly problems that have arisen from irresponsible people breeding unhealthy Tetras just because there is a market for them. Adding 'new blood' to the line, even just bringing in some unrelated snakes would go a long way toward solving these problems. Regardless of how responsible a breeder is in culling unfit offspring, if you start out with a compromised gene pool you will eventually end with results like the ones Wayne showed. The likelihood of ANY animal you come across being completely free of ANY genetic mutation is incredibly low. It's just that most of these mutations are rare or underexpressed and do not end up being passed on to future generations in a form that will lead to noticeable expression of these 'bad' genes. If you're working with a very small group for many generations, this becomes almost impossible to avoid.
That's why you don't see problems like that in other Thamnophis species like Sirtalis. There is such a large number present and on the market (or in someone's back yard) that it's simple for breeders to bring in new genes, often without even having to compromise the appearance and desirability of the offspring.

I don't think we are as far off as you seem to believe. First you did not understand what my reference to the human genome. We are actually virtually identical to chimpanzees, my use of 98% in my original post was referring to the small portion of sequences we don't share with other primates, but this is a garter forum not an anthropology forum so I will close that point by saying that your right when you say that you can't really compare humans to captive garters, however I believe you can make parallels to illustrate the processes that are going on; the very processes you describe in your final paragraph. I don't want to discount the importance of gene flow, but I don't think we are giving the natural selection process enough love. I don't want to speak for Stefan but what I got out of his posts was that there are multiple factors causing the dilemma the European tetras are facing, yet whenever it comes up the only solution that seems to be brought up is crossbreeding with infernalis when there may be a better, with less human control, solution that may work.

I don't know enough about the stock in Europe to say we should let nature take its course and all will be well, but if it is too far gone is the point to preserve a cool looking designer snake or is it to preserve the integrity (definitions of this differ greatly, I realize that) of a species?

-Thomas

[MasSalvaje]

just what should we do with the San Fran
is a question much studied of late
should we mess with his genes
by nefarious means
or leave this poor snake to his fate

Short and sweet and better than anything I could ever dream about coming up with. Well done!

-Thomas