Acrylic enclosure

[Floof]

VERY impressive work! It's lovely, and I'm sure they both love the new accommodations!

I'm waaay late to this thread, I know, but there's a couple things I want to mention.

First, good call turning it around so the floor is 2x2 ft! You must remember that corn snakes get significantly larger than garter snakes, and, likewise, need more space. The 24x24" floor is down there at what's considered "bare minimum" for a fully grown adult corn snake, but it works and gives them "enough" space. 24x18" would have warranted a later upgrade in enclosure size, as those dimensions would be simply too small to accommodate a corn snake. (Speaking from experience here--after owning a total 18 corn snakes, I can say with confidence that anything less than a 20L (30x12") or a similarly dimensioned 24x24" enclosure would be inadequate, and even those sizes can be quite cramped to the right snake, which is why they're the "minimums" and not the "recommended"!)

Could I ask why you're going to install fans? It's not a necessary move, and may only stress the snakes out (constant "wind") and cool down the enclosure too much... I could see hooking fans into a good thermostat set to "cooling" so they kick on when things get too warm, but I somehow doubt that's what the point of them is? There should be plenty of air exchange through the screen tops, the drilled holes in the side, and what airflow is coming in through the cracks around the door.

On the note of the UTH, the reason their packaging very often says to NOT use on plastic is because the manufacturers know how hot they'll get!!! And, trust me on this one, they DO get hot enough to KILL your snakes!!! I have personally measured assorted ZooMed heat pads, the most commonly used UTH on the market, at anywhere from 140-160F, after only being run 1 to 12 hours, respectively, and both measurements were even taken in substrate-free environments (pre-set up, and in a bare floor roach tub), so without the heat-retaining properties of substrate... So, with the layer of substrate, you're looking at the potential of these heat pads cooking your snakes at 200*F. Considering Corn snakes need only a "basking" temperature of 85*F, and that temperatures over 90*F can be dangerous to them, that's easily more than enough to kill them.

To keep heat pads from getting dangerously hot, you need some sort of controlling device. For a very cheap fix in a very stable-temperature room/habitat (something yours are not with heat lamps on just during the day), rheostats (fancy name for a lamp dimmer) can be used. However, these need to be constantly watched and adjusted, using accurate digital thermometers (probes placed UNDER the substrate, directly on top of the glass--or, acrylic--above the heat pad) to be sure it's not getting too hot. The other, much more preferable alternative is a thermostat. Thermostats have a probe which you place directly on the heat pad (like you would a digital thermometer). You set the desired temperature on the dial, and it will turn the heat pad on and off as necessary to keep the heat pad only at the desired temperature.

If your heat pad is properly controlled, there is no risk of the acrylic, plastic, or whatever other material melting or otherwise warping. After all, if it were to melt/warp at 85*F, you would never be able to use the material in a region that has a warm day! If you look up the melting temperatures of plastic, you'll find every product used for animal enclosures, storage/food tubs, etc has a melting point of over 200*C (something like 400F?).

What I'm saying, to the OP as well as anyone else who reads this and was not already aware of the serious risks, is if you don't already have a thermostat for every heat pad, get one!!! It's direly important. Your options are many, keeping in mind a thermostat's price usually reflects its quality... While a $30 ZooMed Repti-Temp 500R is known to fail within the first year of use, a $100 Herpstat or similar, high-end proportional thermostat may last through years and years of use without a single malfunction (not that you shouldn't still monitor them, as thermostat failures can still happen no matter what make/model thermostat you're using).

Also, Nick, the only heat source your corn snakes need is the UTH.. They are very cold-tolerant and tend toward very terrestrial (not saying they don't climb, as they do; they just don't spend significant amounts of time, or, specifically, their digestion periods strictly in the trees). They are also a crepuscular/nocturnal species, meaning they don't naturally come out to "bask" in the sunlight, rather collect all their heat energy from the sun-heated nature around them after the sun goes down. Though you can use a heat lamp if you feel the need, all they really do is dry out the habitat and put your snakes at risk of overheating if the room gets too warm and the habitat is too small for the snake to escape to a cooler place (part of why heat pads are preferable, since they only heat a portion of the floor). I personally only use a low wattage fluorescent tube to light my snakes' habitats (keeping in mind I only keep crepuscular/nocturnal species at the moment), if I choose to light them. I've actually found my corn snake is more likely to come out and lounge around in the open if there's no bright light source... (Can't say for other corns, as I never used lighting on any of my other corns when I had them.)

Now that all of that is said... I apologize to members that don't use Fahrenheit! In my typical American-ness, I still don't know Celsius conversions...

[ConcinusMan]

I mentioned that when we were talking about using acrylic. UTH are not to be used with that material. Glass only. Not saying it's impossible to get away with it, but really, that's not what they were made for. Depending on the thickness, it's likely to warp it or even overheat the pad. Heat does not transfer through wood or acrylic in the same way that it does through glass. UTH should be used for glass only. Those that insist on using them with other materials can just continue to do so and face consequences.

In my opinion, there is no need to pay so much money for a reptile heat mat and expensive thermostat. These are far superior, even though not made for reptiles. They don't overheat, provide just the right amount of warmth, and therefore, do not need an expensive thermostat. On top of that, they are cheaper. I just don't like reptile heat mats but I've had nothing but positive experience using this for heating babies in 20 gallon glass tanks: Amazon.com: Hydrofarm MT10006 9-by-19-1/2-Inch Seedling Heat Mat: Home & Garden

I don't do American to (rest of the world) conversions out of my head either. That's what this is for: Online Conversion - Convert just about anything to anything else

[Floof]

I mentioned that when we were talking about using acrylic. UTH are not to be used with that material. Glass only. Not saying it's impossible to get away with it, but really, that's not what they were made for. Depending on the thickness, it's likely to warp it or even overheat the pad. Heat does not transfer through wood or acrylic in the same way that it does through glass. UTH should be used for glass only. Those that insist on using them with other materials can just continue to do so and face consequences.

Hence, thermostats. An unregulated heat pad is subject to all kinds of variations, extra risks, affects from odd material... And it can cause all kinds of problems, because it has the potential to obtain dangerously high temperatures, on rare occasion potentially hot enough to, yes, warp plastic. Then you stick a thermostat on it set to a fraction of the heat pad's maximum output potential, and, even if that material is going to alter the heat pad's function/output, it's still not going to get dangerously hot because the thermostat cuts all power to the heat pad the moment it exceeds the desired temperature.

If it were a serious and very real risk to use under tank heat on plastic enclosures, then PVC and melamine snake racks wouldn't be designed specifically for use on Sterilite and similar plastic storage tubs. Likewise, the highest quality snake enclosures wouldn't be made solely out of PVC and heated almost solely from below. Enclosures like Visionariums wouldn't be designed with plastic bottoms. Kritter Keepers and Faunariums, plastic enclosures, wouldn't be marketed, or at least commonly used among herp keepers who know better, toward anything needing warmer than room temperature. And you would sure as hell hear a LOT more about serious malfunctions, animal deaths, warped/cracked/melted enclosures, and anything else negative you can name about a heat pad. As it is, I have yet to hear about any of these that didn't translate directly back to an unregulated heat pad or a thermostat failing "hot" (which, effectively, is another case of unregulated heat). Have you?

I don't intimately understand the mechanics of a heat pad, or know how different materials transfer or affect heat or whatever else... But I know enough to know that plastic isn't going to warp or melt or spontaneously combust at any temperatures your reptile requires. I also know enough to know that, unless the device fails, a good thermostat isn't going to let the temperatures get higher than your setting. And I know enough to know that if the surface the heat pad is stuck to isn't getting hotter than 90*F, no matter what style vivarium it's stuck to or whatever other significant factors, it's not going to somehow manage to skyrocket to 400*F and warp and/or melt your vivarium.

I haven't been in the hobby long, but in the time I have been keeping snakes, I have never had a regulated heat pad overheat, whether it's stuck to glass, plastic (some three different kinds thereof), or acrylic, or set on top of a wood surface, metal surface, melamine surface, plastic surface, or even carpet because, barring the possibility of mechanical failure, a properly controlled heat pad just does not get hot enough to cause those problems!

Now, after typing all of this up, I opted to measure the surface temperature of my corn snake's heat pad, a ZooMed brand stuck to the plastic bottom of a Visionarium enclosure. Inside the enclosure under her warm side hide and about 1/2 an inch of substrate, the temperature is 85.7 degrees Fahrenheit. The surface of the heat pad itself, taken with an infrared temp gun with fresh (replaced two days ago) batteries, is a whopping 88.7 degrees Fahrenheit. A three degree difference that isn't nearly hot enough to cause any issues with any of the surrounding materials. I have done this same thing several times in the past, and have never seen more than a 5 degree difference between the two temperatures, with the majority of those being prior to the heat transferring to the other side and/or the heat pad shutting off (temperatures taken one minute prior to a 4-5 degree difference to see if it's a trend or a fluke).

EDIT: I just realized I have my other snake in a plastic Faunarium, so two examples of what you see as taboo. So, taking the temperatures the same as I had my corn snake's... Under an inch, inch and a half of substrate, the temperature is 85.5*F. On the surface of the heat pad on the opposite side of the plastic, it is 85.5*F. Not even a .1 degree difference.

Keep in mind I'm talking about plastic and similar materials. Materials that are kept thin when used for this application, and are known not to melt under "normal" temperatures. I'm not talking about wood or any other heavily insulating material.

Now, maybe I'm missing something here... But how is a heat pad that isn't getting hotter than 90*F (about 32*C) going to make a material whose melting point exceeds 400*F (200*C) warp or melt? There's a pretty significant 300 (168) degree difference there.

(And thanks for the link... Glad I'm not the only not-conversion-savvy American here, lol!)

(Adding after seeing your edit... Argh.)
I've seen those seedling mats put to use under hatchling tortoise enclosures. I can see their usefulness. Aren't they designed not to go over 80 or the like? Not quite hot enough for some animals--for example, Corn snakes are best kept with a heat mat at 85*F so they can properly digest, and "common" terrestrial geckos and many pythons/boas need temperatures 90 or higher.

Call me a worry-wart, but I'd still put my expensive thermostat to use, even if using a seedling mat designed not to exceed 80F. I don't like to play with my animals' lives, and I'd much rather spend $100 once on a nice Herpstat that will regulate the heat pad and tell me when it malfunctions (<3 the over/under heat alarm feature!) and not have to worry about that off-chance of my pet overheating than find out too late that the heat pad malfunctioned, or the substrate retained too much heat, or some other issue otherwise caused my snake to overheat.

Phew... That ended up being a long post!

[ConcinusMan]

In conjunction with a fairly low watt basking lamp (in my case, a 40 watt 12 inches above the top of a 20 gal long) and using about an inch of reptibark/coconut fiber substrate, the surface of the substrate (only on about 1/3 of the floor) reaches 90-92 degrees (concinnus' like 90 degree basking areas) using the seedling heat mat. And at night, when the air temp is 68-70 F the surface of the substrate is 78-80 since, for babies, I leave the pad on at night. I don't use heat pads as an exclusive heat source for sun-loving basking reptiles,(that would be stupid) but rather as a supplemental heat source to keep the substrate a bit warmer than it would normally be. That makes the seedling heat mat ideal. It's also thinner than a reptile heat mat, bigger in the price range, and doesn't have that annoying enormous box where the cord attaches.

[Floof]

In conjunction with a fairly low watt basking lamp (in my case, a 40 watt 12 inches above the top of a 20 gal long) and using about an inch of reptibark/coconut fiber substrate, the surface of the substrate (only on about 1/3 of the floor) reaches 90-92 degrees (concinnus' like 90 degree basking areas) using the seedling heat mat. And at night, when the air temp is 68-70 F the surface of the substrate is 78-80 since, for babies, I leave the pad on at night. I don't use heat pads as an exclusive heat source for sun-loving basking reptiles,(that would be stupid) but rather as a supplemental heat source to keep the substrate a bit warmer than it would normally be. That makes the seedling heat mat ideal. It's also thinner than a reptile heat mat, bigger in the price range, and doesn't have that annoying enormous box where the cord attaches.

Then it's a good thing this thread was started with neither basking nor sun-loving corn snakes in mind...

What works for you, works for you. I maintain that I still won't use a heat pad without a thermostat, and that's my choice. I also refuse to use heat lamps on my snakes--but both of mine are of primarily nocturnal species that don't need overhead heat, and, generally speaking, don't want overhead light.

I will not argue the visual attractiveness of seedling mats, or any of their other benefits, as I have not used them. (However, they sound a whole lot like the Bean Farm's UltraTherm heat mats, which are a very different item than ZooMed's... Though I still wouldn't use one without a thermostat, since I've seen one exceed 100... Still too hot for the snakes I keep.)

[ConcinusMan]

Then it's a good thing this thread was started with neither basking nor sun-loving corn snakes in mind...

True, this was about an enclosure. But still for garters, which are mostly diurnal, love to bask under lights, and enjoy overhead heat generally.

What works for you, works for you. I maintain that I still won't use a heat pad without a thermostat, and that's my choice. I also refuse to use heat lamps on my snakes--but both of mine are of primarily nocturnal species that don't need overhead heat, and, generally speaking, don't want overhead light.

I have an albino garter which is the same way. Hates light, and only comes out when it's dark or nearly dark. For him, he still gets overhead heat from a ceramic heat emitter and he does like to bask under it. All I was saying about the seedling mat is that it was much cheaper than a reptile mat and so far doesn't get hot enough to worry about also purchasing another expensive item - a thermostat.

I will not argue the visual attractiveness of seedling mats, or any of their other benefits, as I have not used them. (However, they sound a whole lot like the Bean Farm's UltraTherm heat mats, which are a very different item than ZooMed's... Though I still wouldn't use one without a thermostat, since I've seen one exceed 100... Still too hot for the snakes I keep.)

I didn't buy it because it's attractive. In fact, when in use, I don't even see it. I bought it because I was needing to heat several shoebox tubs with babies in them and didn't want something that gets very hot or needs a thermostat. I just thought it was kinda cool that this much cheaper pad turned out to be much more useful and safer to me, than those actually intended for reptiles. I'm suggesting that some others might find that product useful and much less expensive than a reptile heat mat and thermostat. I did.

This is my last post here on this matter.

OK, we can probably both agree that it's time to stop hijacking Haz's thread and turning it into a heating debate?

[HazAnga]

well this might counteract what you guy's have said, but yes these tanks are for my corns, the heat mat covers maybe 1/5th of the tank. the middle of the whole tank is where it is. it doesn't git so hot that it's going to melt the acrylic, my boss at the pet store i used to work at has done it for years and no problem (not to say that it couldn't ever happen) the acrylic is 1/4" thick and I'm not worried about it warping or melting or bending in anyway. The place where I got the acrylic also have a couple guys who have something similar to what I've done and do the same thing with their UTH's.
They do spend their time hiding and under the substrate, sometimes coming out to wonder around, most of the time yes they do come out after the (sun's gone down).
As for the fan's, well i scraped that idea, mainly cuzz i didn't feel like drilling more holes to mount the fans then wire them up .

[ConcinusMan]

Well how's the ventilation then? I do know you can take advantage of heat rising from the bottom, (chimney effect) in order to enhance ventilation and that's what I did when I used shoebox tubs for babies when they were first born. Works well only if the heat is rising from one end. doesn't work that great in the middle. As heat rises from one end and exits through the top (must have a way for it to get out) it draws fresh air in through the other end of the enclosure or from holes drilled near the bottom. Pretty much eliminates the need for fans. Besides that, fans are an excellent way to create a draft and make your snakes ill.

chimney effect

[HazAnga]

That's basically the same way its set up. One big UTH on the middle of the complete enclosure. So half in each side.

[ConcinusMan]

One way to test it out (not an option for everyone) is to fill it with smoke. If it clears within a few hours, you have good ventilation. If it doesn't clear, and air tends to stagnate and just sit there inside, that's another condition that promotes respiratory infection, especially when moisture is present.

If the enclosure dries out fairly quickly, then your ventilation is probably fine because even with plenty of heat, it wouldn't dry out quickly without good air flow and you would notice condensation in spots on the walls.