cross breeding?

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Not really new in any way. If you've read The Origin Of Species, Darwin discusses hybrids and among other things their highly variable fertility and the distinction between species and varieties, at length. It's been known for a very long time, probably a lot longer than linnean taxonomy has been used, that the traditional definition of a species is not without exceptions.

Of course, the definition of a species as a group of individuals capable of interbreeding and capable of producing fertile offspring, IS the most concise definition.

I completely agree with you. My statement was actually referring to my locality and some of the attitudes I confront. It is quite likely that many Thamnophis populations maintain a "truer" lineage, so that they do indeed fit the classical definition of a species. In the Coastal Klamath area, however, I suspect the "rules" are being broken. In essence, we may have a geographical area here which harbors genes that challenges our breakdown of what we currently describe as 4 species. No one I talk to at the Redwoods Sciences Lab is willing to support the idea of a local "super race" - one that may absorb various known species into its cladistic heritage. Not surprisingly, many of the PhDs at the lab and HSU have done studies on these snakes way back when, so I suspect vanity and/or politics (i.e. fish and game protections) may be interferring with many of the projects trying to address the issue. I have too often witnessed self-righteousness and politics in the scientific community. It's just like these taxonomical battles between the lumpers and the splitters. Everyone wants to be right! Scientific truth is based on facts (which nature often rewrites). My biggest frustration is really the human arrogance which interfers with maintaining an open mind. The slap in the face goes to those not willing to at least acknowledge the possibility. This frustration isn't pointed at everyone; there are a plethora of similar studies being done all over the place, including here in California. In my remote section of NW CA though, there are still a lot of old-school academics with sticks up their arses. Forget priorities in unearthing new scienctific discoveries if they've got previously funded projects to maintain! They gotta keep those paychecks coming, even if the projects they've got going are a joke! I see some of the most fruitless projects (and timelines for those projects) in the national and state park systems, U.S. Fish and Wildlife, CA DFG, etc.

I understand genetics, geography, pheromones, ***** shapes, etc all play a big part in the continuing integrety of a species' lineage. I see most hybrids are human-aided crossings (NOT natural). There are exceptions. Gopher Kings (Pituophis X Lampropeltis) are rarely found in the wild, but they do occur in the wild for whatever reason (I would like to know). Considering the often orgiastic behavior of mating garters, I might surmise the possibilty of hybridization (even though under the classical definition it wouldn't really be hybridization anymore, right?). Perhaps some pheromonal mix-up, or perhaps just a really horny snake (They exist!) could be at play... We just don't know yet. We'll be chatting about this topic for threads to come.

Steve

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I understand genetics, geography, pheromones, ***** shapes, etc all play a big part in the continuing integrety of a species' lineage.

Wow! That applicably biological word was actually edited?

[ConcinusMan]

Ya know, I keep hearing people say that gopher-kings have been found in the wild. Guess where I'm hearing it? Forums. Only forums. Can't find a single reliable source, and only one picture, purported to be a wild hybrid. The same picture, over and over. So far, it's nothing but a rumor to me.

[Stefan-A]

Wow! That applicably biological word was actually edited?

I'm afraid these things happen. Even some scientific names seem to get censored.

[drache]

still trying to figure out what word it was that got edited - it's early; can someone please give me a few letters?
given the fact that my vagrans male got twitchy all over my concinnus male, I don't think hybridization is so unusual
some males have more drive (hormones - whatever) than others
when I was in college we used to joke about this human male we knew being interested in "everything but porcupines and barbed wire" - so why shouldn't there be snakes with that extra load of drive?

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

still trying to figure out what word it was that got edited

...the shapes of their phallus? Will that work?

[drache]

yeah - that helps
I suppose if they don't let you use the antiquated word for illegitimate child, this one would definitely be on their ****list - and yes, that word they would have actually let me use - I was a good girl and did my own stars

[ConcinusMan]

I'm afraid these things happen. Even some scientific names seem to get censored.

Certain forums will edit the word "Torrent" automatically too. I was referring to rain, not file sharing. Unfortunately, the auto-editing doesn't take words into context. Still the word we're talking about isn't censored anywhere in real life that I know of. It's not a dirty word. Heck, it's even used in elementary school classes as an acceptable way to refer to that male part. Another editing tactic is to make a sentence say "Ship list" instead of the alternative. Works for me. Maybe this forum could change it to say *enis. I dunno. Besides that, snakes have hemipenes. That doesn't get edited.

Staying on topic though, I always belived that the shape of the phallus prevented cross breeding in snakes. I'm learning otherwise. I know I'm quite a bit behind on breeding news. Crossbreeding was unheard of when I started in this hobby and even when it was accomplished it was considered taboo. Now it's all the buzz in breeding culture for creating "designer" snakes.

[MasSalvaje]

Now it's all the buzz in breeding culture for creating "designer" snakes.

I wouldn't say it is all the buzz, I would still lable it as taboo. Yes it is out there more but I think that has more to do with the advances in communication technology as oposed to a paradigm shift.

They always have the same Hybrid adds on the classifieds from all of the same breeders. I was next to a guy at a show that had a lot of hybrid stuff. At the end of the day he he had only sold one of the hybrids and it was to a 10 year old kid looking for a cheap "Cool" snake. I think the real hobbiest still prefer the "pure stuff."

-Thomas

[ConcinusMan]

I agree. I don't think I would buy a hybrid snake, no matter how "cool" it is.

Just to lighten things up a bit, and provide a tad bit of crude humor, check out this Family Guy clip. You have to watch it up to near the end. 50 seconds in, to be exact. When I saw it, I thought of the discussions about crossbreeding on this forum.

Here's the URL Hulu - Family Guy: Brian Makes A Point