Is this what it looks like?

[infernalis]

poaching from the wild would only happen while tetra's fetch a high price, the answer might be for the government to [for a short period ] subsidize licensed breeders to produce large numbers for release on a given day to the hobby at reasonable prices ............do you know what Wayne reading what i'v just written doesn't even convince me ,so forget that idea i'm stumped

No worries..

High price or not, even at $50 a snake, the chance to make a couple hundred for just catching some garters is too tempting with our crumbling economy.

There is a person who is well known for scooping up puget (blue stripe) garters, gravid or otherwise and shipping them all over at $100 per snake, and he makes some serious money doing it.. so something "new" to the hobby with the desirability of a tetra would certainly have people out hunting for them.

[chris-uk]

Making me think about why I want a tetra...

1. Is it because I want a beautiful snake to look at and admire?
2. Is it because I want to feel like I'm helping to keep a species alive in captivity?

My thinking was originally option 2. But then I realised that if it was a dog ugly snake (negating option 1) then I probably wouldn't give a toss about option 2. My feeling is that tetras are a species worth preserving for as long as we can. But I'm increasingly feeling that the EU-bred tetra isn't going to satisfy option 2 unless I have complete confidence with where I source the snake from.

We've talked about inbreeding and health problems. I'm aware that I, for one, have made an assumption that if there's inbreeding in the tetra population there must be an impact on the health of the population - simply because that's the biological consequence of inbreeding.
I'm not aware that anyone contributing to this thread actually keeps/breeds tetras, so it would be useful to hear about first hand experience of low breeding yields, high mortality in young, mutations away from the tetra phenotype, etc. Is it really a problem, or one assumed because the EU stock all came from handful of snakes?

In the US controlled breeding with chipped specimens, and all offspring being chipped, and only sold to keepers who are licensed, may help.

[PINJOHN]

not sure as to the feasibility of chipping a small snake like a garter, not even sure about the possibility's for large snakes

[infernalis]

I'm not aware that anyone contributing to this thread actually keeps/breeds tetras, so it would be useful to hear about first hand experience of low breeding yields, high mortality in young, mutations away from the tetra phenotype, etc. Is it really a problem, or one assumed because the EU stock all came from handful of snakes?

In the US controlled breeding with chipped specimens, and all offspring being chipped, and only sold to keepers who are licensed, may help.

Stefan has contributed to this thread and he keeps them.

I may not be allowed to keep them, but I follow all of this with great interest and am in contact with several of Europes best known breeders, all of them are members here as well.

Just to give you an idea, both of these snakes came from the same litter born in Holland by Fons, a former moderator here (used with gracious permission)....

[chris-uk]

not sure as to the feasibility of chipping a small snake like a garter, not even sure about the possibility's for large snakes

Not talking about garters here, but I read that there are some protected species of snakes that can only be sold and cross borders legally when they have been chipped. These were snakes that have Cites protection, and more than likely weren't in private hands.

Stefan has contributed to this thread and he keeps them.

I may not be allowed to keep them, but I follow all of this with great interest and am in contact with several of Europes best known breeders, all of them are members here as well.

I wasn't aware that Stefan keeps tetras, not that it changes the way I read anything posted so far, but I was looking for input (like the two photos you posted) on the breeding issues. Of those two photos it's hard to say which is more disturbing.

I'm finding this whole thread useful, because if I do end up looking for tetras I want to be as well informed and knowledgable as possible when I buy them.

[MasSalvaje]

I would also disagree with this. I would be shocked if all wild tetras don't have some blood lines from other nearby (sub)species. As I've said before, modern humans have Neanderthal DNA (As we all know, humans did not evolve FROM neanderthals, neanderthals briefly co-existed with modern humans, and then died out). I reject the very idea of "purebred" when it comes to animals who in the wild have or have had access to interbreed with other species or sub species.

You know, there's a fairly simple solution to that: Increase the number of breeding pairs and apply selective forces to the offspring. Ideally, all but one or two should be culled out of a given clutch. Inbreeding is not the end of the world, unless you'll breed just anything. Quite frankly, the tetrataenia should be taken off the market for the time being.

I think Stefan brings up a critically important point that for the most part is being overlooked. Mb90078 (I apologize I don't know your name) you brought up the point that humans have neanderthal DNA which is true but did you also know that humans have one of the smallest gene pools in nature? All modern humans share about 98% of their DNA and all present humans can trace their Mitochondrial DNA back to a single female from Africa about 100,000 ybp. So whether you are a creationist, an evolutionist, or somewhere in between you have to conclude humans have been inbreeding with a much smaller gene pool for thousands of years; much longer than what we have seen with captive tetras.

My point in sharing this trivial information is to emphasize the importance of what Stefan stated. The problem in the tetra's gene pool did not come about as a result of inbreeding, the problem is a result of no natural selection. People for either financial reasons or even conservation reasons have been so adamant about building the population of tetras that they ignore the selection pressures that would naturally be keeping the population healthy.

To add "new blood" by hybridizing does not fix anything. You will still see the same problems and deformities that are present now because again there are no selection pressures on the captive population culling those traits out. So what you end up with by doing this is making hybrid tetras that are no better off than the pure line we (may) have.

-Thomas

[kibakiba]

Well, not to go too much off topic and bring up something that could rile people up... But, the bible says the earth started from 2 people. So wouldn't that technically make us all brothers and sisters, cousins, uncles, aunts, etc if that were true? That would be inbreeding at its "finest".

[RedSidedSPR]

Hehe.

[d_virginiana]

I think Stefan brings up a critically important point that for the most part is being overlooked. Mb90078 (I apologize I don't know your name) you brought up the point that humans have neanderthal DNA which is true but did you also know that humans have one of the smallest gene pools in nature? All modern humans share about 98% of their DNA and all present humans can trace their Mitochondrial DNA back to a single female from Africa about 100,000 ybp. So whether you are a creationist, an evolutionist, or somewhere in between you have to conclude humans have been inbreeding with a much smaller gene pool for thousands of years; much longer than what we have seen with captive tetras.

Actually, humans are pretty genetically diverse. We have a HUGE population base and thousands of morphological and genetic differences. 95% of that 98% we all share is also shared with chimpanzees. This is because most of the genome of any animal is made up of either large segments of 'junk' DNA (this can act as a sort of mutation safeguard; if DNA is damaged in a non-coding region like this, it won't affect the organism's viability) or conserved genes. Conserved genes are things that pertain to basic body formation (4 appendages, 2 eyes, organ systems, ect.) and protein production that is the same or similar in almost all vertebrates. Not trying to sound argumentative, but there really is no comparison between human genetic diversity and the issues facing the European Tetra stock right now.

My point in sharing this trivial information is to emphasize the importance of what Stefan stated. The problem in the tetra's gene pool did not come about as a result of inbreeding, the problem is a result of no natural selection. People for either financial reasons or even conservation reasons have been so adamant about building the population of tetras that they ignore the selection pressures that would naturally be keeping the population healthy.

To add "new blood" by hybridizing does not fix anything. You will still see the same problems and deformities that are present now because again there are no selection pressures on the captive population culling those traits out. So what you end up with by doing this is making hybrid tetras that are no better off than the pure line we (may) have.

-Thomas

Again, sorry for nit-picking, but that doesn't make a lot of sense. Yes, like Stefan said, there are certainly problems that have arisen from irresponsible people breeding unhealthy Tetras just because there is a market for them. Adding 'new blood' to the line, even just bringing in some unrelated snakes would go a long way toward solving these problems. Regardless of how responsible a breeder is in culling unfit offspring, if you start out with a compromised gene pool you will eventually end with results like the ones Wayne showed. The likelihood of ANY animal you come across being completely free of ANY genetic mutation is incredibly low. It's just that most of these mutations are rare or underexpressed and do not end up being passed on to future generations in a form that will lead to noticeable expression of these 'bad' genes. If you're working with a very small group for many generations, this becomes almost impossible to avoid.
That's why you don't see problems like that in other Thamnophis species like Sirtalis. There is such a large number present and on the market (or in someone's back yard) that it's simple for breeders to bring in new genes, often without even having to compromise the appearance and desirability of the offspring.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Well, not to go too much off topic and bring up something that could rile people up... But, the bible says the earth started from 2 people. So wouldn't that technically make us all brothers and sisters, cousins, uncles, aunts, etc if that were true? That would be inbreeding at its "finest".

And a talking snake convinced one of them, a rib-woman to eat a forbidden fruit out of a magical tree and that's why we get periods and snakes are "evil". It's probably a good idea to not bring that up here.

Anyways...... there is so much I could say here... but i don't feel like typing 6 paragraphs. so... to summarize...

- I don't like it when people want to make garter hybrids or intergrades. (btw, the offspring of this pairing would be intergrades) I like garters in their pure form.

- I will tell people I don't like it but I also respect their right to do what they want with their animals. I don't like it one bit and i'm not afraid to tell people that, and why I think they shouldn't do it.... but anyone who doesn't respect a keeper's freedom is being hypocritical. We as herpers get all up in arms when our government tries to pass laws to ban this and that and we don't want the government and the "not snake people" telling us what we can and can't have... what we can and can't do. The same should apply within our community, as long as the animals are not suffering, it's not really my right to say "you can't do that!". I can state my opinion but I should not try to force it down your throat.

- Many qualified people in the scientific community do not even consider subspecies to be valid. To some, those two snakes are the same snake in different color forms. Not that I agree with that... but, it is what it is.

- A personal observation of mine. Take the striped morph of plains garter snake, you know... the one that is lacking those checkers that break up the patterning on the snake. I used to own one myself. Compare it to a normal plains garter of similar coloration. Now. Take a tetrataenia..... and compare it to an infernalis of similar coloration. What do you see? You see the exact same differences and similarities, right down to the fact that the tails on both striped individuals is often barred after the vent! Why do not more people consider that tetrataenia is an offshoot population of infernalis that for some reason, favored the striped morph pattern mutation of infernalis and they just kept breeding and this trait became favorable and thus.... the san-fran became what it is today! This is not unknown to happen... it's a bit similar to how we see populations of sirtalis that lack any striping whatsoever, except the san-fran is apparently far enough along into it to have made it to subspecies.

- I completely agree with keeping tetrataenia illegal in the US. Keep them as illegal as possible... and make it a HUGE offense to be caught with one. it's the ONLY way people will somewhat leave them the hell alone in the wild. And I agree with whoever made the point of... if this was a butt ugly, drab looking snake... people would not make nearly as big of a deal about not being able to keep them. You hardly ever hear anyone saying how they wish they could contribute to conservation of T gigas by keeping them in captivity. You only hear that once for every 20 times you hear someone say it about tetrataenia... the truth is that keeping and breeding animals in a private collection does not contribute in any way to conservation of a species. They are ina private collection and will remain so. They are about as natural as the glass box they live in. Sure, maybe after they are all dead in the wild then you can cling to them a little longer but they will eventually die out in the hobby as well due to inbreeding. If we want to contribute to the conservation of species, then we support programs who actually do this by working to protect natural habitat and fend off destruction of it.

- IMO.... tetrataenia is doomed... because people suck on a lot of levels.... from doing things like mixing them with other snakes in europe, to the fact that the general population does not give a damned about any snakes, let alone a garter snake and is never going to change. The world is rotten to the core and it sucks but it's reality. Species die out all of the time because people don't care. I feel that at this point, the only thing people can do is slow down how long it takes for them to die out. When it comes down to it.... everything will die out some day, including humans.... as our earth's time is not infinite.

I still wrote 6 paragraphs anyways... go figure.

Stefan.... you WOULD be a foul bachelor frog.

I see what you did there.