Taxonomic discussion

[prattypus]

I am glad that I am actually able to understand this stuff


I do not however... take the time to study too much of it past which snake are which species... primarily because we are humans applying strict and exact labels to things that are constantly changing and evolving around the groups we put them into. Our labels can only be so exact... and who gets to decide who is right and who is wrong? When is that exact moment that an isolated population of a species has changed enough to be its own species? When in reality... it is still what it originally was... just slightly modified! And will continue to change... forever! Who are we to make up names and stick them on everything? In the eyes of the animals... it is totally irrelevant. A snake is a snake no matter what his lineage, and unfortunately we will never be able to truely label a snake that is on the fence like the ones in the pictures without knowing his exact ancestry. We could speculate until the end of time.. but it will never reach a definite no matter how many agree. And even when you have a captive bred specimen... you can never actually be 100% sure that a parent of a snake does not have some tiny amount of another species or subspecies in it. You can be 99, but you can't be 100. So it's all very confusing and there are never true definites other than the assumed ones. That is the only reason I really don't bother joining in on stuff like this.

personally.... I am positive that the san francisco garter is doomed, as it stands now. Even if they did somehow make a comeback... which is doubtful considering the vast majority of the world does not give two sh*ts about snakes and will not move over or stop to avoid smushing one with their car... (hell some will even aim for the snake) And simply not enough land or snakes remains for them to make a sufficient comeback. Inhabitable land even in protected zones will get smaller every year due to the usual pollution and drying up of ponds and creek beds. If the species does somehow make a comeback... They will have expierienced such a tight genetic bottleneck that they may eventually phase out anyway... they will basically be genetic clones of one another... much like the way cheetahs went through. Yes, it is sad, yes it is awful, and no one wants to see the beautiful snake dissapear... but I simply do not see much hope for them unless a taxonomic change is made to group san frans and cali red sideds closer together. When I look at a San fran... I see a striped cali red sided... but that's just me and I have never had the opportunity to study any of it in detail.

While the San Fran is limited in it's range, what's left has been protected- so I believe, so what habitat remains will not be further imposed upon.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

I am in complete agreement over the fact that nature is always changing, and the finality of reaching a sound conclusion really only makes humans feel better. On the other hand, trying to figure out the mechanics as to what is really happening among all these populations can lead us to the understanding of whether or not certain activities (e.g. hybridization in the wild) are possible. The tetrataenia/infernalis intergrade relationship leads to all others within the sirtalis clade.... same for elegans... New genetic understanding might lead to extra afforded protections (and I do say might, since there is a lot of politics involved in land development or protection).

Even though species continue to change, to be able to compare a map of ages gone by to the current geography, and then discover the route(s) that ancestors took and how they split to live where and look like they do today is absolutely fascinating to me. Any time you want to understand the present, you usually have to look into the past....

[Garter_Gertie]

Even though species continue to change, to be able to compare a map of ages gone by to the current geography, and then discover the route(s) that ancestors took and how they split to live where and look like they do today is absolutely fascinating to me.

Yup. Furshure. What HE said.

[Garter_Gertie]

It's like that DNA deal going down with the one woman from Africa a trazillion years ago and tracing your ancestory through the DNA of your mother's mother's mother's mother's mother's mother's mother's mother.

You know what I mean?

[reptile3]

I am at a lost here, but I enjoy reading everyone's posts!! Very interesting & informative!! Love the pictures!!

[drache]

it's a fascinating subject, to be sure
to me mostly a spectator sport

[infernalis]

While the San Fran is limited in it's range, what's left has been protected- so I believe, so what habitat remains will not be further imposed upon.

Deterioration of that habitat is inevitable.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Yes, Bay Area habitat is a rare commodity. Dare I say we should not forget all those species upon which garters prey?! If there even was a rare chance of re-introduction (setting diseases, immunities, etc. aside... HA!), success of the species would be based on whether or not there are any prey species left. In the case of tetrataenia, habitat loss (primarily) and over-collection are the danger. Frogs and salamanders however are on the decline everywhere. Chytrid fungus has no cure; pollution, global warming are additional factors we can throw into the disaster plan.

I hate to sound depressing, but I think we can count on more garter species' declines in the future due simply to loss of prey species.

Steven

[drache]

Deterioration of that habitat is inevitable.

actually - no
there are places where degradation of the environment has been halted and even reversed - this is true for some river systems that used to be so polluted that the only life forms they supported any more were molds and algae, and that now support a thriving population of fish, amphibians and water fowl
I am not entirely certain of the exact habitat parameters of the SF garter, but if it's the SF peninsula . . .
Loren, Jerry, help me out here - where do they live? up along Skyline Blvd, in the farm areas along the coast, or by the ditches of the inner Bay (Bair Island and that area)?
I may be in denial, but I think the area west of 280 is mostly threatened by construction and that has been limited by zoning laws; the inner bay has been blighted already and is been rehabilitated
not that I know anything . . .
but I don't think their habitat is going to shrink much further
it is true though, that whatever niche of this area they inhabit, the range is small and thus the population cannot be large enough to support collecting, even at optimal habitat conditions

[infernalis]

Good point and an optimistic view Rhea.

However as time moves forward and if the human race continues in the current direction it has been, that little preserve would need a miracle to remain un affected by urban progress.

Folks have strange views concerning snakes, Like Shannon pointed out, Many will deliberately aim the tires of their car at a snake crossing the street.

As Steve pointed out just this morning, something that seems harmless, Stocking trout for fishermen has left a sizable dent in garter populations.

One swarm of bugs carrying the wrong pathogen, one ruptured pipeline, one derailed train carrying the wrong cargo, Or how about those rampant wild fires or whatever...

Will the primary food source still be available in necessary numbers say in 100 years from now? Will acid rain change the PH of the water ways?

Too much population surrounding too small of an area.