A disturbing trend, really disturbing

[infernalis]

OK... an ethics question...

A garter hobbyist collects a gravid female, feeds her and successfully keeps her until she drops her offspring.

The female is then released where she was found.

The offspring are all fed at least once, the garter hobbyist keeps four offspring, and releases all others, near where the gravid mother was found.

Fair or foul???

that question has 2 answers

[KITKAT]

that question has 2 answers

and they are???

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Fair in my opinion!

Now, collecting a gravid female "just because" is not really very ethical at all. But- what about those females that we find that are abnormally patterned that just happen to be gravid at the time they are found?!

take my hypo from last year, for instance... she was gravid upon her capture.

And, the flame I found last weekend is not gravid, shes far too young, but at the same time... what would the opinion be if she had been? I still would have kept her! I find her to be quite a great find, because she can introduce a brand new bloodline and fresh genetics into the flame world. I will cross her with my flame male from Scott, for genetically fresh flames.

And as a last note, I am sure it's already been stated, but anyone in the hobby who is 100% against any form of WC animal needs to take a look at what they are saying. All of our snakes are descendants of WC snakes, and the ONLY way to GUARANTEE adding fresh genetics to your groups would be from the occasional WC snake. If you think you've found a new "morph", or a new line of an existing one, breeding out that WC individual is the only way to know. I know that you can get others from other breeders, but how will we be certain that they are not distantly related? I and many of us have seen the effects of inbreeding, especially in the Albino Checkered Garter snake.

[Stefan-A]

OK... an ethics question...

A garter hobbyist collects a gravid female, feeds her and successfully keeps her until she drops her offspring.

The female is then released where she was found.

The offspring are all fed at least once, the garter hobbyist keeps four offspring, and releases all others, near where the gravid mother was found.

Fair or foul???

Foul.

What are the positive aspects? The babies were given a meal that they could just as easily have gotten in the wild. That meal was given in exchange for a loss of four individuals and reduced chances for survival for both the female and the offspring, as indicated by the limited research that has been done on the survival of relocated and released snakes. Not to mention whatever impact the stress on the female might have had on the offspring, and who knows what impact the first meal could have had on the offspring's food preferences once released. And of course there's always the risk that a disease could be spread from captive snakes to wild ones.

It just seems to me that the drawbacks outweigh the benefits.

[GartersRock]

I agree with Shannon and Stefan on this one. I agree with Shannon in the sense that the benefits outweigh if the snake is unusual etc. and is needed for whatever reason. But if it is just a normal and you don't really know what you are doing and you just want some babies and to "watch the miracle of birth" then I agree with Stefan.

[Stefan-A]

And as a last note, I am sure it's already been stated, but anyone in the hobby who is 100% against any form of WC animal needs to take a look at what they are saying. All of our snakes are descendants of WC snakes, and the ONLY way to GUARANTEE adding fresh genetics to your groups would be from the occasional WC snake.

The occasional WC snake. Most haven't even been inbred long enough to justify WC for that reason. It's simply unnecessary.

But I would like to add that aberrant snakes tend to have poor chances of survival anyway.

[Garter_Gertie]

"genetically fresh flames"

Try saying THAT fast three times!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

But I would like to add that aberrant snakes tend to have poor chances of survival anyway.

in the wild, most certainly.

My hypo stood out like a sore thumb in the grass.... when matched up to the rock pile she was darting for though... she actually matched the light sandy rocks quite well, and all the dark snakes tended to stick out!

Guess that's why she was doing so well

[zooplan]

OK... an ethics question...
Fair or foul???

Fair
but fairer if the offspring was fed twice or more times.
To take aberrant specimen could be worse, beacuse they might be the future of the population.
On the other hand are resessive alleles common within a genpool before they occur in phenotypes.
At this point we are back to the r and K-species, Stefan, but I can´t find the thread at the moment.

[person365]

Lately I have been reading a lot of posts regarding birthing & picking up gravid females either unintentionally or outright targeting gravid females simply to feel "included" in the breeding forum.

This is not to be taken so lightly, it is not some cute thing, "Awe I'm going to have babies" it is VERY serious stuff.

Or oh they all died, better luck next time SHOCKING!!!!

If someone is new to keeping snakes, that person should have the self control to keep one snake for a period of time, learn the hobby, advance skill and knowledge. Gain understanding of natures process.

When James brought this issue up once before, the topic went onto several tangents until the thread became a photo gallery of pretty red snakes, completely losing sight of the point at hand.

The miracle of birth is awesome, soul stirring and inspires joy in many people, but in reality would you want someone who just read "Md. Magazine" for the first time to deliver YOUR children?

Unless the resources/money/housing/space and proper food are at your disposal, intentionally gathering gravid females just so one can feel included in the "Baby buzz" is a disaster waiting to happen.

And then when the disaster does in fact happen, (all too often) it appears if there is no lesson learned, except that it's OK, just go grab another and try again.

Birthing and caring for neonate snakes is not this easy walk in the park many folks try to portray it to be. It is hard work and requires dedication and should not be taken lightly.

Disrupting the balance of nature to satisfy one selfish desires to play doctor in the delivery room is WRONG

SCREW YOU!