Collecting Gravid Females.

[infernalis]

Gee this topic stirred up the septic.

I don't think anyone found fault with breeders collecting fresh blood???

I think anyone here would dive on a wild "morph" crawling on the ground.

Myself included. Male or female, gravid or otherwise.

A wild hypo/amal/mel or whatever is a true gem, I think James post was more to get us thinking....

[anji1971]

That's all I thought it was, too............just a topic to see how we all felt about it, and not necessarily a judgement.
As I said, I have taken gravid females, for my own reasons, and I don't feel judged or criticized by this thread at all. I think when we post topics like this it gives each and every one of us some insight into what works for everyone else, and something to think about as well. I'm certainly not about to run out and release my female out of guilt, nor take it personally if some of our other members don't agree with why I have her, any more than I would give them a hard time for what they do.
I hate to think we'd lose a valuable member from a misunderstanding.

[adamanteus]

I agree to that this forum has changed, becoming an every day run of the mill reptile forum and yes complete with the flamming and starting of (BS)
and I'll say once again, you people that say it is not right to take wild snakes should think a minute if it were not for that than there would be no captive breed snakes for they had to catch some from the wild to begin the industry........so anyway since you can't put anything on here any more without being judged I will let you all know now I'm leaving the forum, and best wishes to you all.......bye bye

I think you have misunderstood the topic here, Justin. We're not talking about the collecting of wild Garters in general, but rather the deliberate taking of gravid females and whether or not that is a harmful practice.
It's a shame you think it's BS, personally I thought it was an interesting and thought provoking topic..... and no one has been flamed.
Please read my first post in this thread again before you decide to leave us, I'm sure you will see that no one is judging anyone, we're just talking to each other.

Sometimes we all need to sit back and reassess what we're doing, just to make sure we're heading in the right direction.

[Stefan-A]

So, who's up for a heated debate? Shall we discuss the ethics of taking gravid females from the wild?

With pleasure.

Is this going to have a negative effect on local populations?

Yes. The loss per captured female is one captured female plus her offspring. For all you know, you're taking a unique set of genes out of the natural world. If the offspring is released, their chances of survival are worse than if they were born in the wild, so it's only a partial compensation to release them.

Aren't these snakes readily available captive bred?

I don't think they are. In terms of numbers, sure, but not in terms of a diversity of species, or morphs. Or bloodlines. But, I believe that the capture of wild snakes should be left to serious breeders, which can by breeding the wild caught snakes provide 1000 people (arbitrary number, but you get the point) with snakes, without having to remove 1000 snakes from the wild.

And if you do catch a snake, you'd do the remaining wild ones a favour by breeding the ones you caught and rather than releasing the offspring, you should sell them. Make sure that you answer the demand, so that as many wild ones as possible will be left alone.

[Loren]

Can I just say that there have been some excellent, thought provoking, discussions the last few days. I'm loving it and just soaking it all in.

Personally, I have thought of looking for a gravid female, raising babies, and then releasing them. My first thought was actually to find a native non-gravid female to pair with my male and release any young that may result. However, in California, it seems that "propagation" of any native reptile requires a license. I don't remember all of the ins and outs, but after reading the fish and game regulations I came to the conclusion that collecting a gravid female would fill my desire to raise young, still enable me to release all but one or two of those young along with the female, and have a relatively clear conscious that I did not damage the native population. Other Californians please feel free to correct me if you interpreted the regulations differently. It's definitely not something to be taken lightly and perhaps I'm being selfish, but I would much rather produce young native garters to release than to purchase non natives and then have to worry about whether the resulting babies are in good homes, etc.

I hope that made sense. I'm definitely still learning and my opinions are still forming

Actually, just for your info, it is also technically illegal in Ca. to release any captive kept or captive born animal back into the wild without written consent from the Ca fish and Game.

[infernalis]

James & Stefan, I just read the words of two very WISE individuals.

[Stefan-A]

That's not good for my ego, Wayne.

[infernalis]

Did you want me to say a wise man and a grump?

[adamanteus]

Stefan, I think Wayne meant to say WIDE, not WISE!

[SpyrotheGartersnake]

i think it wrong to take gravid females from the wild. from us taking them from the wild that would become a decrease of the wild population and a increase of captive population. plus we need wild garter snakes they help reduce the population of mice,frogs,worms,fish and and many others. now if we were to keep taking garters from the wild there would be a major increase in the populations of mice,frogs,worms,and fish. and we couldn't release captive bred into the wild because they wouldn't know how to survive