wild garters cross breeding in the wild.

[the_edsta]

I'm actually surprised I haven't seen more about this on this site, but what about infernalis and parietalis? Specimens from each group can look quite similar, and their ranges are close... they seem like they'd be a natural pairing. Does anyone have experience with it, in the wild or in captivity?

[kibakiba]

Yeah, we have a melanistic (possibly male or young female) here... It lives in the field. Seen it twice, but both times I couldn't catch it. Always pops up in the blackberry bushes. My little Derpy is dull black with a fading stripe. He's an oddity in his own right. Mostly mentally

Also, Snakey (rest his little soul) was black, light lipped with tan side stripes. The spotting could be that it was an ery. I believe Ashley's baby, Cuddles, has orangey spots on him. My favourite garter from when I was a kid was a fitchii... I was 4 almost 5 and a worker brought me a black garter, had very little red spotting with a yellow upper lip area with a little tiny bit of orange at the tip of its nose... Around here, unless you catch the elusive blue northwestern... It's the most colourful snake you'll ever see.

[the_edsta]

Still curious... anyone with interspecific experience with infernalis and parietalis? I know the OP asked about parietalis and radix, but this pairing seems more likely to me (and I've wondered about it in the past).

[tspuckler]

It is scientifically proven ...

Science, as a rule, never proves anything. Gravity, evolution, etc. are all theories. A theory may have a lot of evidence to support it, but it can never be "proven." This is a basic "rule" of science.

Here's a three-way atratus cross (Santa Cruz, Oregon and Diablo Range Garter Snake) that I found last year.

[kibakiba]

Do you have proof that it's a three way cross? How would you truly know unless you got all of its genetics and such tested?

[ConcinusMan]

Besides hemipenis shape and ornamentation, there are pheromone and ecological differences. If the ladies do not smell right, the guys don't go for them.

I can't say I've heard of a T.s. parietalis X T.radix hybrid/intergrade but with overlapping ranges it possible.
Then again I know that Thamnophis has a wide range of hemipenis design(shapes and sizes) so I wondering if this eliminates the chance of hybrids in many overlapping ranges.

Good question to bring up for discussion.

What they said ^^^

Where two different species of garters occur, you just don't see any hybrids between the two, for reasons mentioned above. Neither species would be around for long if hybridizing occurred in the wild. The two species are separate for a reason. Because it just doesn't happen.

This may be somewhat off topic, since the original question has to do with T parietalis, but where I live, I've found melanisitc ordinoides x elegans vagrans. I even observed what I think was a sirtalis pickerringii x ordinoides eating tadpoles in a pond.

I think you're mistaken. T. ordinoides are so completely different physically, from T.s. pickeringii or T. e. vagrans, as to make it all but impossible for them to mate with another species. None of the snakes you mentioned can breed with one another. It's physically impossible.

All three are highly variable naturally.

[ConcinusMan]

Here's a three-way atratus cross (Santa Cruz, Oregon and Diablo Range Garter Snake) that I found last year.

And where is the DNA test results that brought you to that conclusion? And besides, those are all the same species. Without the DNA testing to prove it, you simply have an intergrade. It doesn't mean you have a hybrid.

[Stefan-A]

And where is the DNA test results that brought you to that conclusion? And besides, those are all the same species. Without the DNA testing to prove it, you simply have an intergrade. It doesn't mean you have a hybrid.

It may be an intergrade, it may be an intraspecific hybrid. If it's a cross involving different subspecies, it's the latter. It may even be both.

[ConcinusMan]

Not to mention that whole "atratus" complex has been a source of confusion all along. I question the validity of any of the atratus subspecies. Thamnophis atratus intergrades

[Stefan-A]

I question the validity of any of the atratus subspecies.

On the grounds of what, morphology?