San francisco garters?

[Philminator]

so I'm guessing the only reason we're allowed to have them in Canada is that they aren't native to this country? because they've been bred and sold in Canada as far as 2001, I just can't find the guy on the net but many people still use his name

[ssssnakeluvr]

yes, they are fine outside the United States....very anal and protective here..... violate federal laws if you have one...even if you have paperwork documenting they are captive bred overseas....

[Spankenstyne]

Hey Phil, we can have them up here because their protected status is only in the US, they're not CITES even so outside of the US they're fine.

Dr Phil Blais has bred them in the past here in Canada, that's probably who you're thinking of Phil. He's well known for his work with the Eastern Flame garters as well. He had a pair of San Frans available at an expo out East years ago for $1500 (if I remember the article correctly) but I haven't heard of anyone selling any up here since. He's also gifted some to close friends of his over the years so there are others who have them, they're around but never advertised. I know at least one gentleman who has/had some, unfortunately I'm not one of the lucky few when it comes to them. Perhaps one day.

[ConcinusMan]

Hey Phil, we can have them up here because their protected status is only in the US, they're not CITES even so outside of the US they're fine.

Sounds like the perfect loophole to encourage poaching/smuggling, especially with the prices they go for.

they're around but never advertised.

Gee, I wonder why? Well, I'll tell you what Chris, I know plenty of people that would be willing to come to Canada and bring you some, hand delivered, at half the $1500 price tag. It's not like they're hard to get. It's no big secret where they can be found in fairly decent numbers. Clearly, the only solution that would make this kind of thing not happen, is if they were completely worthless in Canada, as they are here in the U.S.

I still think that this is how some snakes get into Europe. (illegally collected and brought into Canada) All this B.S. about them all being decended from legally acquired animals years ago is well... B.S.

[Spankenstyne]

I'm quite sure that Dr Blais' animals are/were direct descendents of the legal snakes that were originally exported to England, but I also don't doubt that the vast majority of the other tetrataenia currently outside the US are from smuggled animals.

They certainly didn't sell at that $1500 though for what it's worth. Garters in general are also a very niche snake up here as well and unfortunately thought of as "jumpy & worthless" by most. I may be wrong but I think that he probably was being a bit cheeky listing them at that price & didn't intend on selling them. Just a guess though as I don't know him personally.

[guidofatherof5]

Sounds like the perfect loophole to encourage poaching/smuggling, especially with the prices they go for.



Gee, I wonder why? Well, I'll tell you what Chris, I know plenty of people that would be willing to come to Canada and bring you some, hand delivered, at half the $1500 price tag. It's not like they're hard to get. It's no big secret where they can be found in fairly decent numbers. Clearly, the only solution that would make this kind of thing not happen, is if they were completely worthless in Canada, as they are here in the U.S.

I still think that this is how some snakes get into Europe. (illegally collected and brought into Canada) All this B.S. about them all being decended from legally acquired animals years ago is well... B.S.

I think Udo may have the skinny on the original snakes exported.
Hoping he'll have some time to post on it.

[ConcinusMan]

I already know the story.

[guidofatherof5]

I already know the story.

Is this the story that you think is B.S?

If so, were did you acquire the truth?

I by no means am tring to start an argument but wonder how you know the real truth.

[ConcinusMan]

It's not the story that I think is B.S. it's the notion that every S.F. garter in captivity is, or is descended from 100% legally acquired snakes that I think is B.S. I'm not buying it. Illegal collecting of this species still happens. They don't just vanish into thin air. They are slipped into collections outside the U.S., mostly by smuggling into Canada and then onto Europe, and then passed off as legal. I already know that people in Europe have been buying "legal" ones out of Canada that are probably illegally collected, or born of illegally collected adults. As long as they remain legal in Canada and off of CITES list, there's nothing to stop it from happening.

[RepGuru]

I'm in complete agreement regarding that ridiculous $1500 price tag. That sort of figure really WILL get the dishonest juices flowing in certain circles!! Tetra's are not hard to find in Europe. They were on sale in Hamm earlier this month for 80 euros - about $115 each. Last year a guy in England couldn't get his sold at all and ended up selling them to a pet shop for £15 each about $22. I'm still reeling from an offer to sell me three adult proven tetra's - two males and a gravid female, for £700 which is less than a grand U.S..........without going into personal stuff I wasn't able to go through with the deal. The seller was desperate for the snake room back for the new baby!! Frankly, having heard the recent reports of animals dying at just 2 years of age I am giving young tetra's a very wide swerve and only looking for sub-adults. Just an added bit of info here though - the popularity of Liophis is growing steadily here in England.