Hybrid Photo Thread

[Greg'sGarters]

you don't have unlimited resources, Greg.

I know, but how many hybrids can I get? It's a little burden for a good purpose.

[ConcinusMan]

Instead of culling them, you could just keep them and separate the sexes, so that they don't breed. If you can't keep them, I would be more than happy to take them..... I would assure that they did not breed.

Like I said , I would most likely cull them immediately. One reason is that every year I have litters I always end up finding one or a few "running" around the house no matter how careful I am with handling / transferring, feeding etc. At least one always ends up being found escaped in the house somewhere. Besides the concern about keeping them from escaping (which I can't assure that they won't) you would suggest that I also feed and care them and try to find homes for them where I would then definitely have no control over their escaping or breeding. All that is out of the question, I would cull them immediately before they would need to be fed and before they could escape. But I don't like to see a life wasted so I'd rather they be used for feeders if possible.

But none of that is going to happen anyway because it's a heck of a lot easier to just make it impossible for hybrids to be conceived in the first place. Other than northwesterns with any sirtalis ssp., (which cannot and have not interbreed due to physical incompatibility) I just don't keep adults of different species together even if I think they're the same sex. So, you nailed it with the last thing you said. I would assure they can't cross breed in the first place. If I can "assure that they (the crossbreed offspring) did not breed" Then I can do the same to prevent crosses from being born in the first place.

That is the first line of "defense". Prevention. If that goes wrong and you do end up with hybrid litters the only "right" thing left to do IMO is to ensure they don't live. I can't ensure they won't escape or that someone else will let them escape or breed if I let them live. It would be bad enough to make the first mistake of creating them but letting them live or sending them out would be yet another mistake IMO and two mistakes won't fix the first one, it would only make it worse.

The only way to "ensure that they don't...." as people keep saying, is to cull them period. So yeah, I cringe to say it but I agree with Stefan. So, if I don't want to have to do that then I'll just not let hybrids in the first place. We all know how baby snakes are made. I don't think it's difficult at all to prevent it.

[d_virginiana]

Just adding in another way hybridization can ruin not necessarily the hobby, but the lives of the animals. In horned frogs, there is a lot of interspecies hybridization that goes on, because the offspring are really good looking (not as dangerous since this mainly happens in America and Japan, and there is no way these animals could escape captivity and contaminate wild bloodlines in South America). But some of the hybrids called 'green apples' are almost always deformed or unhealthy to some degree, and lead very short lives. But they're pretty and bright, so people continue to breed and buy them.
Wouldn't surprise me at all if similar issues popped up in other closely related species like those in Thamnophis.

I'm with Steve... I probably couldn't bring myself to cull a healthy animal, but I understand those that do. I could probably come to terms with using them as feeders better than culling, since at least it wouldn't be a waste.

[chris-uk]

Unless you're very fortunate we all have finite resources, even The Ranch can't cope with an unlimited number of garters (can it Steve?). So there's a point at which the practicality of keeping hybrid babies becomes the reality of keeping those babies securely and isolated from other garters for the term of their natural lives. Take a hypothetical litter of hybrids, who could honestly say that they could keep a litter of 20 for potentially 15 years? How about 30? Hypothetical because hybrid litters I've read about have been much smaller, but it makes you stop and think about the principle of keeping hybrids alive.
The second practical note I'd make is what provision you make for hybrids if you were to step in front of a bus. Would the person dealing with your snakes know that the hybrids needed special attention, or would they just end up in the hobby? Come to that, how do any of us ensure that our snakes will be looked after if anything happens to us? Time to write down some instructions for our next of kind maybe? But I digress.

On the practicalities of keeping a hybrid litter alive. I don't know that I could look after more than a couple, and I don't think I'd find trusted homes for more than a couple more. So I'd unfortunately have to come down on the culling side of the fence. Better make sure it doesn't happen.

[Steveo]

I'd cull any hybrids the way I used to cull fish: feed them to something bigger. A kingsnake could make short work of a new litter, or I could freeze them and give them to one of the local raptor rehab facilities.

I wouldn't feel good about it, but sometimes you have to set emotions aside and do what's best. History tells us that sometimes it only takes one person with good intentions to f*&^ everything up.

[Greg'sGarters]

Honestly, I would have to agree that the BEST THING to do is just not to let them breed in the first place. That stands above all else in my eyes. If I did have to cull any snakes, after reading a few other threads, I like Steve's way of gassing with CO2. I feel like this is probably the most humane way to cull a snake. I heard that there is supposed to be little to no suffering on the animal's part. Steve, if you're reading this, do you think that you could post up a thread about CO2 Euthanization? Anyway, does anyone else have any photos?

[guidofatherof5]

I have been planning on a euthanasia discussion thread for some time now.
It truly is a can-of-worms as there are differing opinions on the process. Different ideas in different cultures and areas of the world.
I have been holding off until I can introduce it correctly.

[Greg'sGarters]

I have been planning on a euthanasia discussion thread for some time now.
It truly is a can-of-worms as there are differing opinions on the process. Different ideas in different cultures and areas of the world.
I have been holding off until I can introduce it correctly.

That seems reasonable, just, and understandable. There are probably some people on this forum who wouldn't even think about euthanizing a snake even if it had every species of Thamnophis in it's bloodline. I can see how a thread like that could cause controversy, sorta like this one did. Some people think hybridization is a gift from heaven, others say it's a curse from hell.

[BUSHSNAKE]

To be honest it can to a degree, and in other species it has. At least on the level of not knowing with much certaintly how "true" the lines really are, and it usually goes hand in hand with the morph scene. Look at Corn snakes, same goes with Pituophis and some Milks & Kings. It hasn't really happened much with Garters and imo it's mainly due to the lack of a lot of designer morphs available and general interest in Garters as a whole. It's important at this stage to be as diligent as we can about keeping them pure, it doesn't take much to muddy the waters & hopefully more folks realize this and do what they can to avoid it.

I don't have a problem with them if honestly represented, as you say to each their own, but I steer well clear of them in my collection. The problem is introduction into the breeding pool, intentional or not. If there were inexpensive sterilization solutions it would be less of a concern.

Oh god there are a ton of lines, most of the early classics, that are completely lost as far as purity goes. Brooks kings are a good example. They have a tiny natural range and im suppose believe that all those morphs came from the wild...hahaha yeah right!!! Its sad but i dont know how harmfull it really is. I like facts not speculation. Follow the Morelia hobby much?? Its crazy mixed, i would like to get some pure darwins before they become polluted lol

But hey thats why wildcaughts are important to our hobby...or i should say important to me and everyone who captive breed snakes

[Greg'sGarters]

I feel like hybridization is only bad when the majority of the people disagree with it. Look at corn snakes, people hybridize them all the time with rat snakes and even king/milk snakes. Their market is doing GREAT! But that's because people allowed that to happen.