T. s. tetrataenia or T. s. infernalis???

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I think that the fact that you had an entire littler of perfectly normal infernalis and then this one is really weird. Because if there was some muddling of genetics going on.... shouldn't we see varying degrees of it elsewhere? Like, in the other babies, and the parents? I mean exceptions happen I guess, but I just don't see one rogue baby as reason to condemn an entire line of healthy snakes. I mean, the whole coloration and everything of that one is just weird. It's like a totally different snake. There are outside factors that can alter how color and pattern is laid out while the baby snake is growing inside of the egg. Eve though mother snake incubates these eggs internally, things could still mess up. Sometimes, one gets messed up but it actually has nothing to do with the snake's lineage and is not genetically inheritable (like ringer and shatter pattern ball pythons) it could be faulty genes (like a birth defect), or many other things. I would be interested to see if it ends up being a failure to thrive. Often, when you get a real weirdo in a clutch something it's a weakling and doesn't make it.... and I'm not just talking garter snakes here either.

[prattypus]

The term intergrade has certain ecological and evolutionary connotations. Basically, anything produced as a result of human activity, whether that occurs in the wild through introduction, or in captivity through crossing, would be a hybrid.

Ahh, I get it now. I thought a hybrid was different species- and may be sterile; and an intergrade was of sub-species and would have fertile offspring. Didn't take the human factor into account.

[bkhuff1s]

All I'm saying is that if we are keeping and breeding these animals, because we enjoy them, then it shouldn't really matter, if they are hybrids. If the breeder is looking to produce a specific locality, that's cool. That's what I'm doing. However, because some offspring don't represent what we, as a breeder, are looking for, destroying them, well it just isn't right. Find different home's for the snakes. They're pets, if need be, find a home with no intention of breeding.

If they are hybrids, then destroying them isn't going to do anything. It would be like throwing a grain of sand at a tidal wave, because if this proves your hypothesis, then the hybrid is already in the general population, especially since it's a limited population. Destroying them will contribute little to nothing. You'd have to control the entirety of the San Fran line in Europe, to prevent the hybridization.

If you really feel you can't live with these animals, then the other member who spoke up would, I'm sure, happily take the group off of your hands. I know I would be. They are gorgeous.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

If you really feel you can't live with these animals, then the other member who spoke up would, I'm sure, happily take the group off of your hands. I know I would be. They are gorgeous.

an ocean separates them...

[prattypus]

Shannon- if your activity on here is any indication- you're feeling better? I hope so!

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Shannon- if your activity on here is any indication- you're feeling better? I hope so!

well, I am feeling better in the sense that, I no longer feel any symptoms other than the coughing and the respiratory stuff. I don't actually feel sick anymore... but I know I still am! so I'm laying in bed on my laptop

[reptileparadise]

Wow, thanks for all the input guys!

I'm awaiting more reactions to see what others have to say about pattern variations.
I'll be talking to a few infernalis breeders this weekend to hear what they have to say.

Offcourse, these animals wont be euthanised, but if they appear to be actual hybrids. None will be sold and all will be kept back. The parents will be kept seperated as well then. Yes, I'm a purist!

@Shannon;
this animal certainly stands out! Way darker then the rest (allready was at birth) and with a somewhat weird head pattern.
Its eating, just like 10 of its littermates. Only one, extremely small animal seems to hate food...
For those interested, I'll happily update this topic every now and then. I might need to be remembered though...

[ConcinusMan]

Ahh, I get it now. I thought a hybrid was different species- and may be sterile; and an intergrade was of sub-species and would have fertile offspring. Didn't take the human factor into account.

I have to admit I never thought of it the way stefan puts it. I always thought of hybrids (and F.Y.I., hybrid snakes are usually fertile, they aren't mules, you know) as crossing different thamnophis species. Intergrades are same species, different subspecies. I don't care if the subspecies breeding is ONLY a result of human interference that never occurs in nature. I will still call it an intergrade.

Obviously, a T.s concinnus would never breed with a flame eastern (t.s sirtalis) in nature, but if it happened in captivity, I still wouldn't call that a hybrid. Hey! who's up for trying that?

That's what I thought. Not too many people.

[Stefan-A]

I have to admit I never thought of it the way stefan puts it. I always thought of hybrids (and F.Y.I., hybrid snakes are usually fertile, they aren't mules, you know) as crossing different thamnophis species. Intergrades are same species, different subspecies. I don't care if the subspecies breeding is ONLY a result of human interference that never occurs in nature. I will still call it an intergrade.

Why insist on using that term intentionally incorrectly?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intergradation

[prattypus]

I have to admit I never thought of it the way stefan puts it. I always thought of hybrids (and F.Y.I., hybrid snakes are usually fertile, they aren't mules, you know) as crossing different thamnophis species. Intergrades are same species, different subspecies. I don't care if the subspecies breeding is ONLY a result of human interference that never occurs in nature. I will still call it an intergrade.

Obviously, a T.s concinnus would never breed with a flame eastern (t.s sirtalis) in nature, but if it happened in captivity, I still wouldn't call that a hybrid. Hey! who's up for trying that?

That's what I thought. Not too many people.

Wait- garter snakes aren't mammals? I know you mean well, but sometimes you come off quite arrogant. And are mules the only hybrids that are sterile? I thought Ligers were too?