Brumation of wild garters

[ConcinusMan]

I can see your point. However, if I collect a few this year I hope that nobody thinks badly of me. Turns out that the areas that most garters I have collected over the years came from, left their families and community behind to get bulldozed. Entire populations gone forever. In that context, did my collecting, before the bulldozer came, make any diffference? Perhaps it can if I pass a few snakes onto responsible breeders? When I say a few, I mean a few, and at no profit. Just a thought.

Ticks me off to no end. The habitat where I released most of my CB concinnus is now no longer existing. Any concinnus (and there were plenty) didn't stand a chance. Nowhwere to go but streets and parking lots. Sucks. but hey, the creek is clean now thanks to millions of dollars in local property tax on owners who didn't even contribute to the mess. Clean creek, but acres and acres of wetlands and snake habitiat is gone.

I have but one hope left for finding concinnus in my county. Salmon creek wetlands. Not easy to get to, even though it's close. Not even going to try that until we get to 70+ degrees. Mostly I'll be filming, but a few will be going home with me before the bulldozer comes, and come it will.

[gregmonsta]

@gregmonsta: I think one or more people would really have to go overboard and collect hundreds if not thousands to make a dent.

I have to agree with Stefan on this one. Although I realise that wild collection is sometimes the only way I really only find it acceptable for scientific reasons. The hobby aspect is well developed and almost anything you want can be sourced from private breeders. In the wild every snake counts.

[Frédérick]

the place where i observe and collected 2 specimens of garter snakes is also under threat of development, and it is clear, almost official, that their habitat will be under the bulldozers within 3-5 years (the land is owned by people a friend of mine knows well). in this case, i didn't felt bad about collecting, altho i must admit i had a double fail with those ....however, now i thoroughly did my research, so that if i ever plan to get a specimen, i'll have live feeders ready for it. i do feel it wasn't really a matter of feeding that killed them tho, but rather the lack of winter cycling/belly heating....

but before collecting, I'd first consider your offer Charles, if it is possible! you live a bit far from where i live though i have a question: if you ''host'' a young snake all summer and then at the coming of autumn you set it free where you took it, will it overwinter fine? and about the newborns you get, do you free some of them or they stay in captivity (i think they are ''marked'' by their birthplace and return to it every year isn't it?)

@stefan: i think it may be true that we are more keen at collecting, but i guess the situation in Europe is really not the same as here. not that we shouldn't care, but if the government says its okay to collect 10 max. of a certain specie, then i think it isn't so bad if i take one or two, assuming proper care is given of course...

[ConcinusMan]

Over a 25 year period or so, I've kept many garters. All but 2 were eventually released back where I found them. A concinnus pair which I kept for about 20 years died in captiviity for obvious reasons. However, I released 150 of their offspring back into the same habitat they came from. That's all the impact I've ever had on garter snake populations. These are all good arguments on both sides, however, you all have garters. That wouldn't be possible without some collecting in the first place.

[gregmonsta]

Over a 25 year period or so, I've kept many garters. All but 2 were eventually released back where I found them. A concinnus pair which I kept for about 20 years died in captiviity for obvious reasons. However, I released 150 of their offspring back into the same habitat they came from. That's all the impact I've ever had on garter snake populations. These are all good arguments on both sides, however, you all have garters. That wouldn't be possible without some collecting in the first place.

I'm well aware of that .... but not all people who choose to collect will have the same ethic when it comes to releasing the offspring back into the wild as yourself (although this could also have a negative effect, eg introducing pathogens into the wild population). With the modern hobby aspect it just seems more ethical to buy CB.

[GarterGeek]

My snakes are wild-caught, but I don't recommend it. Unless the wild-caught snake is unavailable on the market, or is somehow mutant (like an albino), it's better to buy captive-bred. It can be difficult to get wild-caught snakes on pinkies and they may carry parasites they you can catch.

You don't necessarily need to drive anywhere to buy a snake from a breeder. Many breeders are willing to ship their snakes to your house.

Good luck!

[ConcinusMan]

While I do agree one should by CB, I'm not going to pay $30 + shipping PER SNAKE to get myself a pair of concinnus this year, when I can find hundreds of them right here near my home. Also, It's a small world when it comes to breeders. To dang many snakes being bred are related. Other members have expressed interest in widening the gene pool for concinnus so I think I'll probably send a few their way. Also, this particular area has concinnus with colors, patterns, and genes that you just don't see in CB snakes. As far as pathogens in the offspring goes, the snakes were never exposed to anything other than their parents. Any pathogens present, if any, came from the environment where they were collected. That's the reason I would never release a snake to a different location or population.

I would have to drive a awfully long way to pick up a CB garter snake. I did get one shipped to me. Amy. Iowa albino T. Radix. There's a good argument against doing that too. What if she carried a nasty pathogen to which she is immune, but then escaped and infected local snakes? What if she crossbred with native snakes?

Everyone has made some very good points. Points which I have always considered. I don't just do this thoughtlessly. I do care.

[Stefan-A]

While I do agree one should by CB, I'm not going to pay $30 + shipping PER SNAKE to get myself a pair of concinnus this year, when I can find hundreds of them right here near my home.

Come on, 30 + shipping is practically nothing. Haven't gotten a single snake that cheap yet.

Also, It's a small world when it comes to breeders. To dang many snakes being bred are related. Other members have expressed interest in widening the gene pool for concinnus so I think I'll probably send a few their way.

Is there any reason for widening it, or is it just paranoia?

Also, this particular area has concinnus with colors, patterns, and genes that you just don't see in CB snakes.

From what you've shown us, much the same patterns and colours are already found in CB snakes. At least on this side of the pond.

I would have to drive a awfully long way to pick up a CB garter snake.

I have to leave the country, or have somebody else do it. I may complain about having to do it, but it's not an obstacle.

Everyone has made some very good points. Points which I have always considered. I don't just do this thoughtlessly. I do care.

Duly noted, but I hope you don't mind dissenting views on the issue.

[ConcinusMan]

Come on, 30 + shipping is practically nothing. Haven't gotten a single snake that cheap yet.

Is there any reason for widening it, or is it just paranoia?

From what you've shown us, much the same patterns and colours are already found in CB snakes. At least on this side of the pond.

I have to leave the country, or have somebody else do it. I may complain about having to do it, but it's not an obstacle.

Duly noted, but I hope you don't mind dissenting views on the issue.

I just don't have much resources.

The desire to widen the gene pool isn't just motivated by paranoia. Some people have expressed the desire to get different genes so they have more to "work with" and perhaps come up with new desirable traits through selective breeding.

I have yet to see CB snakes that look like some of my local concinnus found in the Portland/Vancouver area. White lips, black heads, very blue chins/throats, undersides, and lateral stripes. Some with burnt orange "frosting" (like they were spray painted) on the top last 1/3 of their bodies, some almost lacking the side spots. Perhaps I missed these photos of CB snakes?

I certainly do not mind dissenting views on the issue. I would be disappointed in all of you if there were none!

[charles parenteau]

Agree !