Feeding Frogs?

[celticguitar]

But why take them at all, when there are better and safer options?




Of course it's your choice and he'll probably learn a lot, but I can't see anything good coming from keeping summer observation pets, as far as the animal itself is concerned.

Don't worry, I'm just thinking out loud.

Me too!
Other than becoming lazy and getting a good free feed on gut fed crickets, a safe place to hang, getting bigger stronger etc. but no real benifit for him. but my son gets to see feed see him up close without getting bit by deer ticks and get's to learn how to handle creatures gently and have greater respect for nature and not be scared of it. I have him set up on the deck in the back yard so he is still kind of outside in the elements. I am just rambling now and getting away from the topic of post Yes there are better things to feed your critters

[GradStudentLeper]

Every population is at its maximum size, overpopulation tends to occur after some dramatic change, as when a species spreads to a new area or a year when reproduction has been exceptionally successful. Or when the size of the population is considered big enough that it becomes a nuisance to us. It's not possible to interfere with natural selection, either. It occurs regardless. It's not like a fragile ecosystem, it's more like math.

Frogs, like everything else, produce more offspring than can ever possibly survive to reproduce. To illustrate this, post metamorphosis, you can go by a pond with a healthy frog population and not be able to avoid stepping on little frogs. You dont see nearly that many adults, because of the juvenile mortality rate on metamorphs (it is even worse for tadpoles). As a matter of fact, the vast majority of those individuals that you see hopping around, will probably die from predation, many of them from, well the very snakes you are feeding them to (this holds in the US, and in finland with Natrix natix if you have them there)

Taking a few metamorphs from these populations wont harm a damn thing provided the population is healthy. If they are green frogs (Lithobates clamitans) I can guarantee the population is healthy, they are not in decline.

[DrKate]

As a matter of fact, the vast majority of those individuals that you see hopping around, will probably die from predation
[...]
Taking a few metamorphs from these populations wont harm a damn thing

Except of course the predator population...

[GradStudentLeper]

Except of course the predator population...

Not really. There are good and bad years for every organism. Plus you relieve intraspecific competition and decrease the overall mortality rate. The only way a single person can start hurting a population of frogs or their metamorphs through collection is essentially to collect them commercially(IE, use a sein or drift fence to sample the entire water way), collect whole egg masses (instead of parts) or to start taking breeding adults. Alternatively he could poison the waterway or introduce a non-native frog. Oh and Chitrid.

Taking a few once or twice a week to feed to snakes during the summer months will not even be detectable by the math you use to calculate age specific mortality. Unless we are talking about a threatened species with unstable populations like... virtually all of the frogs native your home state.

[DrKate]

Just making the point that everything is connected. If you're making a well-educated choice to make an impact that you believe is sustainable through those good and bad years, that's totally fine by me. But I do think suggesting that celticguitar's and Ibkukin's impacts can be written off as completely harmless (and by implication not worth educating themselves about) is irresponsible.

Don't get me wrong, I think assuming that the impact of collecting wild frogs is overwhelmingly greater than other available foods (e.g. store-bought fish from potentially unsustainable fisheries), and AGAIN by implication not worth educating oneself about, is also irresponsible.

I think a better answer is to seek out the help of your state/local Dept. of Fish & Game or local university's amphibian biologists before making a decision about collecting from the wild, even if the local population seems to be booming and especially if you don't know what the species is.

[GradStudentLeper]

Just making the point that everything is connected. If you're making a well-educated choice to make an impact that you believe is sustainable through those good and bad years, that's totally fine by me. But I do think suggesting that celticguitar's and Ibkukin's impacts can be written off as completely harmless (and by implication not worth educating themselves about) is irresponsible.

Don't get me wrong, I think assuming that the impact of collecting wild frogs is overwhelmingly greater than other available foods (e.g. store-bought fish from potentially unsustainable fisheries), and AGAIN by implication not worth educating oneself about, is also irresponsible.

I think a better answer is to seek out the help of your state/local Dept. of Fish & Game or local university's amphibian biologists before making a decision about collecting from the wild, even if the local population seems to be booming and especially if you don't know what the species is.

Oh of course, I am not saying that such concerns should be written off, which is why I have been specifying healthy populations of non-declining frogs. If the frogs in your yard are yellow legged frogs, dont touch those... On the other hand if they are green frogs or bullfrogs, you cant hurt the populations of those species if you try.

[celticguitar]

Just making the point that everything is connected. If you're making a well-educated choice to make an impact that you believe is sustainable through those good and bad years, that's totally fine by me. But I do think suggesting that celticguitar's and Ibkukin's impacts can be written off as completely harmless (and by implication not worth educating themselves about) is irresponsible.

Don't get me wrong, I think assuming that the impact of collecting wild frogs is overwhelmingly greater than other available foods (e.g. store-bought fish from potentially unsustainable fisheries), and AGAIN by implication not worth educating oneself about, is also irresponsible.

I think a better answer is to seek out the help of your state/local Dept. of Fish & Game or local university's amphibian biologists before making a decision about collecting from the wild, even if the local population seems to be booming and especially if you don't know what the species is.

Then I guess none of us should be collecting snakes from the wild population by definition of your statement and from what I read is what alot of us do. You could look at it like my snakes came from that area and I collected a few frogs from that area wouldn't I just be removing the frogs that my guys would eat anyway? I feed my guys worms so other than the little green frog that I have it's a non issue for me. I also forgot to mention I raised a bunch of tadpoles this spring to let my son watch them morph and released them back. I have a little understanding of sustainable populations and the need not to remove the most fit specimens to maintain good gene pools to maintain populations. I am not advocating commercial harvesting and while I am not at this area 24 /7 I truly believe I am one of a very few if any who visit this spot who would could possibly be interested in collecting frogs to feed snakes which I am not. So for the most part I am only talking about my small part of the universe and people have to be intelligent about what goes on in their little microcosoms they vist. If they see very few frogs then the should leave them alone as the area is not healthy but if they are tripping over them well what's couple of frogs between friends
Dwight

[GradStudentLeper]

I think a better answer is to seek out the help of your state/local Dept. of Fish & Game or local university's amphibian biologists before making a decision about collecting from the wild, even if the local population seems to be booming and especially if you don't know what the species is.

I thought of this again, and I could not help but say this:

I am the local university amphibian biologist... in addition to my rather extensive home collection of snakes and frogs, I am a Ph.D student who does his work with predation strategies in aquatic snakes, and the evolution of predator recognition and defensive strategies in frogs, the later focuses on behavioral defenses and adaptive shifts in population structure.

[DrKate]

Then I guess none of us should be collecting snakes from the wild population by definition of your statement and from what I read is what alot of us do.

Well, yes and no... What I'd hope is that you've educated yourself about the populations of snakes you collect from, and are only taking a sustainable number. Sure, for the vast majority of people, taking one or two (or ten) garter snakes in a year is going to be a pretty negligible impact. Then again, as pretty as they are, I'm not out chasing my local San Francisco garters.

You could look at it like my snakes came from that area and I collected a few frogs from that area wouldn't I just be removing the frogs that my guys would eat anyway?

Good point.

[DrKate]

I am the local university amphibian biologist...

I did think of that, actually. All of your comments have included "if the local population is healthy" which is a fine caveat to make. My point in suggesting a local biologist as a resource is that they would be able to say whether the population in question is, in fact, healthy enough to tolerate the amount of collecting the person anticipates doing. As of yet I don't think we know either a location or a frog species in Ibkukin's case...

Oh, and best of luck with the rest of your training!