Minnows

[Stefan-A]

We have one video account of a snake experiencing a "thiaminase seizure."

Thiaminase is not the sole cause of neurological disorders.

We also have about 20x more written accounts of snakes, fed on sans live fish diets, dying for no apparent reason.

Equally meaningless.

Also, I have yet to see one nutritional analysis of rosy reds/goldfish proving their "high" thiaminase levels.

Have you bothered trying to look it up? I mean, for example the list that has been posted here a number of times with fish containing and not containing thiaminase is based on tests that have actually been conducted. Until someone tests the fish species again and actually proves that they don't contain thiaminase in significant quantities, there's really no reason to assume that the earlier tests gave false results.

[infernalis]

My feelings have been that if successful garter keepers/breeders say "don't do it" I won't.

It's hard to argue with success, and keeping a small number snakes alive for a year or two is not exactly "success"

Some of the more respected members of this forum have specimens that are several generations down from the original parents they acquired many years ago, follow their lead..........

[jitami]

Some of the more respected members of this forum have specimens that are several generations down from the original parents they acquired many years ago, follow their lead..........

When I first got Sly in 2002, the general consensus was to feed rosy red minnows aka tuffies because they were considered safe at the time. Now we know better, but I would guess that most(at least US) garter keepers have used minnows as a primary food source at one point or another. I'm not arguing their safety,or lack thereof, as a primary food source now, but I don't think the occasional minnow(or goldfish for that matter) is going to do any harm. Of course, I do not have the experience to back that up and would love to hear from those who do

I'm curious how long people have been feeding frozen fish fillets? This seems like a relatively new occurrence that most people have not heard of before coming to this forum. I'm not saying it's bad... I'm assuming we really don't know what kind of nutrition is truly optimal for a garter or how to get that nutrition into them. We're all just doing the best we can with the information we have.

[ssssnakeluvr]

look in the articles page....link to a study for mink on thiaminase containing fish.... I think it's worse for growing snakes as opposed to adults. I fed goldfish for years to adults before getting a computer and learning more about it, and didn't notice anything...but have seen serioius isues with young ones growing fast...

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

But, Dekay, you haul yours outta your 'crik.' Please don't lead someone to think Blacknose Dace, memembers of the minnow family, are common, easily found fish in pet stores.

The only minnows I know available to the hobbiest - *unless* they live near a bait store and know specifics about minnows and know what they're doing - are rosy reds at Petco, PetSmart, et al.

You with your Dace [minnows] are more the exception than the rule because you are so dang lucky and that wonderful wonderful world of your outside your back door.

But the *only* place I've yet even found feeder guppies is at Twin Cities Reptiles. I gotta laugh! Before I found them at TCR, I asked the Fish Department Dufus-Bobo-Head at Petco if they had feeder guppies and the FDDBH said, "I've never heard of them. What are they?" I bet he would have answered, "I don't know," to "Who's buried in Grant's tomb?"

But if one did buy xpensive guppies and they breed like, well... Like guppies! The cost should be minimal.

Maybe one can only get feeder guppies at reptile kind'a places???????????

Feeder guppies are not EVERYWHERE>.. but a good number of stores have them. Also, many bait shops and fish stores offer for sale many other kinds of minnow... they are not that hard to find, you just have to look maybe where you are, everyone has rosies, but in many parts of the country, such os not the case, so it is defintely a bad idea to condemn feeding minnows. Minnows are in fact... one of the biggest make ups of a wild garter's diet!

you could also order boxes of already frozen bait minnows such as shiners, dace... offline..

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I can report no problems from feeding adult snakes live rosy reds/goldfish when scented pinkies weren't accepted.
No stunted growth, no jerky movements, and no abnormalities in litters. In fact, my female eastern who was fed primarily on tilapia/salmon chunks dusted with calcium carbonate/reptocal had the largest number of casualties in her litter.

My garters get a primarily mice diet... as well as all the major garter breeders I know of... and they all do great. I personally CAN report that a diet involving goldfish is fatal. All my garter snakes from my younger, inexperienced years (going on 7-8 years keeping garters now) are DEAD. and It is my fault for feeding them all those fatty, nutritionally incomplete, thiaminase ridden fish. Scott felzer feed his snakes only rodents... and I have seen them in person, they are BIG, they are robust and healthy, they throw large litters and they are AWESOME! I am not saying a rodent only diet is ideal, because IMO, it's not, but I can say that I have seen the long term effects of a diet including thiaminase containing fishes, a diet including variations of safe fishes and rodents, and a diet consisting of purely rodents.

The latter two have proven to produce long lived, healthy, robust snakes. What others do with their snakes is not something I can control, but I do not see how it is worth a risk when evidence has shown time and time again, even if SOME snakes APPEAR to be okay on this diet, that it causes a slow, seizuring death in many. All of the snakes I mentioned before hand... died in that exact manner. They lost their ability to control their movement. Ever since I learned about the thiaminase problem and have been feeding pinkies and salmon with a supplement, I have healthier, bigger, heavier, better feeding babies and robust happy adults. And best of all.... none of them are dieing from thiaminase like effects. Sure... we all lose one time to time... but at least i know I'm not doing it myself with the diet I use.

a customer of mine just lost his girl ribbon snake of 8 years old that had been eating goldfish. It was only 2 feet long... which is puny for an adult female ribbon... do i think that her diet contributed, and most likely, caused her death? absolutely. Do I think that her diet caused her to remain so small and dainty even though she was eating 3-4 days a week? absolutley. I consider her a casualty that I was unfortinately too late to save.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

I'm curious how long people have been feeding frozen fish fillets? This seems like a relatively new occurrence that most people have not heard of before coming to this forum. I'm not saying it's bad... I'm assuming we really don't know what kind of nutrition is truly optimal for a garter or how to get that nutrition into them. We're all just doing the best we can with the information we have.

A vitamin supplement, an effort on our parts to find filets that still have bones and skin, and a diet that varies to some degree and includes rodents is a safe bet

[jitami]

Thanks Shannon You do have the experience I was looking for... and have talked/worked with others who have more

I'm really leaning toward rodent only... which is pretty much what I've done for Sly for the last 5 years It was only that first year that he was on almost exclusively rosey reds.

[aSnakeLovinBabe]

Thanks Shannon You do have the experience I was looking for... and have talked/worked with others who have more

I'm really leaning toward rodent only... which is pretty much what I've done for Sly for the last 5 years It was only that first year that he was on almost exclusively rosey reds.

haha... thanks... i don't like to advocate an all rodent diet but from what I have seen with other keeper's snakes... they do fantastic on it. My male concinnus will only eat thawed pinkies ever since he started eating them... and he in fact is now the biggest, most robust.. active male I have!!! And his skin is like velvet! haha...

[jitami]

Sly will only take rodents & live fish... with 95% of his diet being mice. Ella seems to prefer mice & live fish, won't touch tilapia, and grudgingly ate a worm... It's the babies that I'm still trying to figure out. Thankfully they'll eat anything so I get to choose what to stick with and, of course, I want what's best for them