OK I'm sooooo TEEDED off it's not even funny!!!!!

[ATNGUY]

Shannon....Brilliant!

[GartersRock]

BRAVO Shannon!!!!!!

[Stefan-A]

There is nothing naturual at all about us keeping snakes in glass boxes and writng their life stories for them.

I agree with the "playing god" argument being a fallacy.

But.. Everyone who has tried to define what's natural, has failed miserably. The problem is, that they try to dictate what's natural, rather than observe. For example, our desire to keep pets in the first place, is the result of instincts being misapplied and one might argue that both the instincts and that they are misapplied, are both quite natural.

One could also argue that they are simply being applied in a way that is no different from anything else that we observe in nature.. What we may be witnessing with people keeping pets and livestock, may also well be a developing mutualistic relationship. It may not seem that way at first glance, but we are increasing the fitness of the animals we keep. The relationship could very well be argued to be "natural", on the grounds that mutualistic relationships occur in nature. Aphids trade sugar for protection by ants. -We provide pets with food and shelter, and increased chances of reproduction, in exchange for the services they provide.

You also seem to be proponing a model, where one "unnatural" thing justifies the other, here in this specific case. Usually, these models are used the other way around (also fallaciously), to justify the banning of something innoccuous, on the grounds that it may lead to something that is perceived as harmful.

Most importantly, I think you need to understand that people may want you to have the right to produce hybrids if you wish to do it, but still think that it would be better if you didn't do it. The day someone starts to propose the banning of hybrids, I'll be there opposing that proposition. That would be an example of people tring to impose their beliefs on you.

[GartersRock]

Agreed. I personally, prefer people didn't create hybrids. BUT I would never try to STOP anyone from doing so if they feel it's ok.

[Loren]

Definitely a lot of preference involved in this discussion. My preference in snakes is mostly those that are found in the wild in my part of the country, because I can study/enjoy them in captivity, and actually get to find them in the wild as well.
I walk right by hybrids (unless they are a naturally occuring one) because I am interested in snakes and their life in the wild, and man made "species" dont have any wild background to study. They essentially dont exist to me. Some are pretty, but it stops at pretty for me. Just my opinion. Cant teach someone about how a corn/king cross lives in the wild, because it dont(other than maybe a super rare wild caught hybrid, which I would enjoy finding it was truly wild-bred).

Yet my dogs are 3 way crosses, and I'll take them over a purebred anyday, and dont plan to ever have a purebred dog. And my parents crossbreed their dairy cattle with great results. The difference being that cross breeding breeds of dogs and cows undues the many many generations of inbreeding that have begun to show obvious problems in the breeds. Only condition being that the crosses should be made with careful selection of the breeds of both parents- not just a random humping.

But now I have myself confused on the differences between "breeds" (dogs, cows) and "species and subspecies" (snakes). Guess they(dogs, cows) are all so domesticated and custom bred that they arent really wild anymore anyways.

[Stefan-A]

Guess they(dogs, cows) are all so domesticated and custom bred that they arent really wild anymore anyways.

It was studied on pigs and cows in the 70's. Domesticated animals, given the opportunity, would behave just like their wild counterparts. Behavior that they hadn't had any use for since they were first domesticated thousands of years ago, resurfaced very quickly. Of course it's pointless to mention this, considering all the cases in the world with domesticated animals becoming feral.

[drache]

this is a fascinating discussion and it's very early . . .
my mind is a bit lazy and spitting up random responses and musings
personally, I find the purity movement just as abhorrent as the paint pot approach to breeding - one could say, I prefer the middle path
frankly, the idea of breeding different species to each other, at first glance seems absurd to me - and somewhat offensive
yet I think mules are fantastic, and hunters capital horses, and the average mutt sturdier and more intelligent than the average pure bred dog
yes - they're all examples from the mammalian world which is so different
but that really isn't the difference as much as the difference in our minds
I can see it in my own
all these mammals have been kept for utilitarian reasons for ages, so it's not surprising that humans should have selected and bred them for desirable traits and we're thoroughly habituated to it
the reptiles serve a different purpose - we keep them for our pleasure, even if it's disguised as scientific interest
so possibly, the faint disgust I feel at the cavalier mix and match approach to breeding, has more to do with some puritan corner of my mind that considers it frivolous to do such a momentous thing, just to satisfy someones aesthetic preferences which are in many cases different from mine
and the faint disgust I feel at the absoluteness of the racial purity movement stems from the sense of confinement and some ugly associations
it's probably no less personal for most of you
I can claim no noble purpose in my keeping of reptiles at all - still trying to come up with a decent justification, but meanwhile I'm enjoying their company and trying to make it, so they don't abhor mine
I don't think they have much of an opinion about it, since they have nothing to compare it to
pardon my ramblings - I need another tea

[Loren]

No need to pardon your ramblings. They were well wrtitten.

[Topaz]

I honestly did not know that hybrids outside of the wild even existed until this thread. I had heard of the water moccasin and the copperhead mating and producing some very venomous offspring in the NC area.

Speaking from the point of view of a rodent rescue, the majority of rescues aren't against all breeding practices. I've only heard of a few reptile rescues in my area, and a couple of those breed snakes and geckos themselves. Probably because they're never full up on rescue cases. We actually just got back from a lady's home who does all rescue, with snakes and birds being her specialty. She breeds pastel ball pythons. The biggest problem with breeding dogs, cats, and rodents (for pets,) is that anyone can do it, but not anyone should. From my limited understanding, it takes more knowledge and dedication to breed something like snakes, especially a hybrid.

I have no idea of that makes sense since I just woke up. But I hope I got my opionion out there.