Herpetologist

[Stefan-A]

I don't want to become a herpetologist, I just want to take the courses.

[ssssnakeluvr]

wouldn't mind taking them myself...haven't seen a lot of job openings for herpetologists....kinda hard to find, but would be fun!!!!!!!

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Most of the professional herpetologists I know are not herpetologists full time. Unless there is the opportunity to work with threatened or endangered herps on a long-term (usually funded) project (and most often concerned with amphibians these days), or the lucky landing at a zoo's reptile house, or you're a professional breeder, most career choices involve knowledge incorporating the other sciences (fisheries, wildlife, forestry, etc.).

There is often confusion as to who earns the right to be called a herpetologist. Many believe that because they've been breeding all kinds of herps for years on end, that they consider themselves herpetologists. At present I only call myself a herpetology student (even when I graduate, at heart I know I will ever remain the student, for the beauty and mystery the herp world has to give us just keeps on giving!
I believe if ya throw an "ologist" in your title, you need to at least have a Bachelor's Degree in a natural science. I don't believe herpetology is at the Bachelor's level, however there are rare circumstances where you can have a Zoology major modified into a Herp major, but only with extreme scrutiny and final approval from the department of the major. I know of one local woman doing this (California Reptorium).
For those who would contest that a degree is required for the herpetologist title, I believe just because you have had years of experience with herps (and you may know your stuff!), doesn't mean you necessarily know the process of the bigger picture. I don't mean to offend; I am just saying that a well rounded scientific curriculum ultimately walks it likes it talks it. Whether I choose Wildlife, Conservation Biology, Natural Resources Interpretation, or Zoology - I have to know and appreciate Statistics, Calculus, Biology, Botany, Chemistry, and a whole plethora of classes specific to the major... as well as take some elective science classes (i.e. Mammology, Dendrology, Soils, Geography, GIS, etc.) That's the bigger picture! I'd love to hear other's perceptions regarding this.

Of course I do have to pay tribute to the locality "experts" found the world around. Nothing beats that gestalt recognition of a wild species like that resulting from the quick reactions of a local herper on his or her favorite grounds!

[Stefan-A]

For those who would contest that a degree is required for the herpetologist title, I believe just because you have had years of experience with herps (and you may know your stuff!), doesn't mean you necessarily know the process of the bigger picture.

I would contest it, though only in principle. The lack of a degree does not mean that you don't have the necessary knowledge. What it does mean, is that your knowledge is practically unproven.

Naturally those that have earned the degree wouldn't be happy about other people using the same title as they. But the assumption that a person hasn't earned the title despite having worked just as hard, is actually a bit absurd in my opinion. "Herpetologist" is not only a title that can be earned, it's also a description of anyone who conducts scientific study of reptiles and amphibians.

[infernalis]

My take on this will probably cheese a few people off...

Not herpetology, but a field I have been involved in on a professional level since 1986...(Same concept however, concerning degrees)

Prospective employers like degrees when looking to hire a newb, however I have seen first hand the following scenario.

applicant #1. is 23 years old and has just earned his degree in computer technology. Got great grades, highly recommended by staff at college, etc...

applicant #2 is 35 years old, self taught and has nothing more than a high school diploma but got lucky enough to have had a previous job in the same field, be it through a friend or relative, whatever... NO degree but a decade of hands on experience.

I and most other prospective employers would chose applicant number 2 over applicant number one. #2. has a better grasp on the "big picture" than number 1. and is more likely to to lack the arrogance many young people posess upon graduation.

The applicant with the degree has knowledge, but lacks "real life" experience.

The point is, a degree is an accomplishment, but in reality nothing more than a very expensive sheet of paper that proves nothing more than good retention of what has been read from textbooks and recited by a teacher.

"book smarts" and intelligence are similar, but not quite the same.

I'm not saying in any way that I would want a "self taught" doctor to perform any surgeries on me, however there are documented cases of discoveries made by people who never set foot on a college campus curing disease and changing the world.....

If herpetology is your passion, pursue it, stack up those degrees, go for a doctorate, it will be your best chance at recognition for your work.

However, don't belittle those who lack that fancy document framed on the wall...

After re-reading Steven's post for the third time, I do stand corrected on one issue, the title must be earned and not self appointed. "ologist" and "enthusiast" are two distinctly different things.

[Stefan-A]

I and most other prospective employers would chose applicant number 2 over applicant number one. #2. has a better grasp on the "big picture" than number 1. and is more likely to to lack the arrogance many young people posess upon graduation.

Well.. In my experience #2 would be far more likely to be the arrogant one and more likely to be doing things in a way that can only be described as "wrong", only because that's how he has always done things. He might be a better investment, in that he does have experience, but #1 has an education which will start becoming a serious advantage as soon as he starts gaining experience. On the other hand, he's probably more likely to switch jobs, than the older one.

The applicant with the degree has knowledge, but lacks "real life" experience.

After a few years, he'll have both.

The point is, a degree is an accomplishment, but in reality nothing more than a very expensive sheet of paper that proves nothing more than good retention of what has been read from textbooks and recited by a teacher.

Not necessarily. The teachers we have, are not just teachers, they also conduct R&D and really are more than just reciters of textbooks. They've pretty much written those textbooks. The tests we have (and all of them aren't really tests in the traditional sense) do not rely on the student's ability to memorize facts, they actually test whether or not you understand and are able to apply the knowledge you have gained.

"book smarts" and intelligence are similar, but not quite the same.

They don't have much in common, really. Both book smarts and experience are about learning, but intelligence can't really be learned, it's a separate concept. And wisdom is the ability to apply the knowledge you have, whether it's learned through reading or learned through experience.

[infernalis]

Well.. In my experience #2 would be far more likely to be the arrogant one and more likely to be doing things in a way that can only be described as "wrong", only because that's how he has always done things. He might be a better investment, in that he does have experience, but #1 has an education which will start becoming a serious advantage as soon as he starts gaining experience. On the other hand, he's probably more likely to switch jobs, than the older one.

Sometimes true, sometimes not, in many cases the older more experienced one will have been humbled by some experiences that the younger one has yet to encounter.

And yes, the younger one will most likely change jobs looking for that better deal. (more than once in most cases)

Many years ago I was fired from a job for refusing to subordinate to a child. (OK she was 22 I was somewhere around 30) That experience knocked my arrogance level down quite a bit.

Later on I did hire a college student, he was great and I learned a lot from him, in fact that was the point behind hiring him in the first place, So I could "steal" the college information for a lot less than going myself, Joe and I are still friends to this day. (I traded my experience for his education, we both reaped the benefits)

However something does have to be said about the growing number of "older" college students enrolling over the last couple decades. Again, that is most likely someone looking to better their value in the career of choice.
then either seek a pay raise or change jobs..

If the older one is "dead set" in their ways, they most likely start a new company of their own, and either succeed or fail miserably, depending on their desire to learn and apply the knowledge gained along the way.

A former colleague once told me that if you can swallow your pride, and admit that one person cannot do everything, that to truly succeed, hire others that specialize in what you cannot do yourself.

After a few years, he'll have both.

Indisputably correct.. But around here, most employers are not willing to wait that few years for the "student" to "season" into the professional.

Not necessarily. The teachers we have, are not just teachers, they also conduct R&D and really are more than just reciters of textbooks. They've pretty much written those textbooks. The tests we have (and all of them aren't really tests in the traditional sense) do not rely on the student's ability to memorize facts, they actually test whether or not you understand and are able to apply the knowledge you have gained.

Again indisputable, it is known that some of the finest universities are located in Europe, now I know why...

They don't have much in common, really. Both book smarts and experience are about learning, but intelligence can't really be learned, it's a separate concept. And wisdom is the ability to apply the knowledge you have, whether it's learned through reading or learned through experience.

Again so very true, Never thought about that so thoroughly...

I am still to this day making payments for my oldest daughters college "education" so she can work part time at minimum wage doing something completely unrelated to what I sent her to the institute in Pittsburgh for.

Along this journey of life, I have met some intelligent people who struggle to tie their own shoes, and met some "dumb" people who hold patents.

Application of the gray matter located inside ones skull is a choice we either consciously or unconsciously make ourselves.

Stefan, Your level of intellect exceeds your years...

[Stefan-A]

Along this journey of life, I have met some intelligent people who struggle to tie their own shoes,

Einstein would be a classic example.

[infernalis]

Einstein would be a classic example.

Here is a brain teaser,

Why should the world be thankful that Einstein was Jewish??

I don't want to become a herpetologist, I just want to take the courses.

Admirable, the quest for knowledge should only end at the moment of death.

[Steven@HumboldtHerps]

Yes, I would have to agree with you on this Wayne. I have seen many such self-appointed idiots even at herp show booths! And Stefan, I accept your rebuttal as having sound merit. By all means, I did not mean to offend anyone on the forum by stating this opinion. In fact, that's what these forums are for - exchange of ideas and perceptions. I too will stand corrected, for as Wayne mentioned, I do believe there are indeed many graduates posing like self-appointed fools themselves, for they have no real life experience to go with that hard-won piece of paper; so what in that case is the point of the degree?

In fact I'll just simmer down now in my old age. I had less college classes to my name than most of my younger seasonal co-workers at the park, but guess who got the longer tenure? Must be my age, maturity, German work ethic, my personal interest and obsessive compulsiveness with anything flora and fauna, but basically life experience.

In retrospect, I think we're all in the same boat!

Maybe it was because the other day when I went to the county fair, there was this lady in the nursery section with a butterfly booth (complete with a live Monarch exhibit). She claimed to be a butterfly expert (sells eggs, cats, and pupae along with a plethora of butterfly attracting plants... She did not want ME asking her too many questions. When I mentioned that endorsing the Butterfly Bush (Buddhlea) in NW California was an environmental threat - being an extremely invasive shrub, she asked "invasive to who?" It's to whom!!!! No, seriously, this person had no broader knowledge of anything that did not spin within her own tunnel vision of interest - No understanding of consequences - the bigger picture.
I understand now that there are school of lifers with no certification in the sciences that may be titled "herpetologist", but I believe those with a true ethical, yet objective foundation are a smaller number within the uncertified herp community.

Steven

After re-reading Steven's post for the third time, I do stand corrected on one issue, the title must be earned and not self appointed. "ologist" and "enthusiast" are two distinctly different things.