Anyone ever tried Reptilinks?

[AntTheDestroyer]

Your telling me violently throwing a mouse to the ground crushing its internals is more humane then freezing? I think most people would disagree. Second you are basing all of this on the fact that you are comparing a snake's ability to handle foreign gut pathogens to that of humans. This is completely unrealistic from both an ecological and evolutionary point of view. Not to mention without actual proof you can not say that this product has any more or less parasite load than any other frozen thawed food source. Finally that is not the definition of virulence, it nothing to do with the amount bacteria but the severity of the disease it causes.

[joeysgreen]

On mouse euthanasia, yes. It is a smaller form of a recognized form of euthanasia; and I have observed it's effectiveness and am trained to rate both levels of pain and consciousness in animals. Freezing has been long recognized as a very painful method of death as the cells crystalize prior to the loss of consciousness. As someone who has been frostbitten more times than I can count, I can vouch for how painful this can be.

I don't think I've compared human and snake floral gut tolerances. What I have done is to use examples of human food processing as an example people may relate to what happens with food as it is turned from ingredient to end product. Regardless of snakes being able tolerate more, disease still happens at the intersection of virulence and exposure as described in an earlier post.

I never said this product had parasites.


Virulence is not defined by the severity of the disease. Many influenza strains are highly virulent but cause nothing more than a runny nose and a cough. Virulence is a description of how capable a pathogen is at causing disease. If virulence is low, then a lot of pathogen is needed. If high, then perhaps only a single organism.


Ant, if you're taking offense to any of this, then go use the product. No one is stopping you, and I'm sure your snakes will be fine.


Ian

[AntTheDestroyer]

I am certainly not offended in fact I agree that mice are a better food source for my snakes. I just think the information you are attempting to pass on is flawed. Bacteria are parasites, which is why you study them in Parasitology.You are completely wrong about virulence. This should clear it up.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virulence
I mean just think about from a purely common sense side. Bacteria come in all shapes and sizes, and affect the host in varying degrees based on many different factors. If virulence was based on number of bacteria it would be an arbitrary term with little meaning.
Lastly you are saying things about the product that you would need scientific proof to support, and frankly it does not exist.

[joeysgreen]

lol, I don't get how we're not on the same page as it comes to virulence. Yes, I am trying to say that virulence is the degree of pathogenicity. Virulence does not equal disease. Where the amount of pathogen comes in to play is it's inverse relation to virulence in the formation of disease. As virulence goes up, the amount of pathogen needed to cause disease goes down.

I guess in the purest form of the word, bacteria could be parasites, however they generally are not discussed as such; just like viruses are not considered parasites, even though they have a host relationship. I guess we've taken different parasitology courses.

The only thing I am saying about the product is that there is increased likelihood of bacterial overgrowth in processed foods. I just saw another hamburger recall today in the news. I don't see how this is not an evidence based discussion.

[Rushthezeppelin]

And honestly one of the biggest reasons we are so susceptible to these pathogens is the fact that we have utterly annihilated our gut bacteria in at least the US. 80% of our immune system is in our gut and a very large part of that isn't even composed of our own cells. It would be interesting to see studies on the gut bacteria of captive vs wild herps (and hell maybe some studies on if their gut bacteria are as important to them as they are to us). Also studies of those on bioactive setups vs standard sterilized setups. I have a hunch that those kept on bioactive setups are able to get more good gut bacteria, but really it's just a hunch till the studies are done. Sadly there's probably very little interest in these specific topics at local university herpetology departments. I might just take it upon myself to try and contact the head of that department at University of Texas. Perhaps I can spark some interest, who knows.

[joeysgreen]

That is a very good additional point Rush. I'll bring it back to the dog example I used earlier in the thread; Dogs that are fed kibble their entire lives, no matter how great nutritionally that food is, are more susceptible to pancreatitis after a fatty meal (stealing table scraps or finding roadkill), and more likely to get GI upset if they eat spoiled food (roadkill, garbage). Now I'm not saying to feed road kill and garbage, just pointing out that a finely tuned GI system isn't as accommodating to dietary extremes. I don't think this is documented in reptiles, but is that because it doesn't happen or because of the lack of documentation in reptiles?

[Rushthezeppelin]

That is a very good additional point Rush. I'll bring it back to the dog example I used earlier in the thread; Dogs that are fed kibble their entire lives, no matter how great nutritionally that food is, are more susceptible to pancreatitis after a fatty meal (stealing table scraps or finding roadkill), and more likely to get GI upset if they eat spoiled food (roadkill, garbage). Now I'm not saying to feed road kill and garbage, just pointing out that a finely tuned GI system isn't as accommodating to dietary extremes. I don't think this is documented in reptiles, but is that because it doesn't happen or because of the lack of documentation in reptiles?

Really tough to say. Perhaps though the fact that some of the largest species of snakes can eat meals that are enormous and take sometimes half a year or more to digest is telling who knows. I'm sure small oxen are rotten in a couple of weeks in a wild retics belly lol..but they do fine (well as long as nothing spooks them into regurging lol). Of course does that mean captive retics can do the same? Can that be extrapolated to all snakes? Then you also have the case of blood pythons that while eating smaller meals will sometimes take half a year to take a huge dump....and most of that half year they are sitting in a stagnant ammonia/nitrate/piss filled pool......Who knows.

[joeysgreen]

and most of that half year they are sitting in a stagnant ammonia/nitrate/piss filled pool......Who knows.

This last part can be cleared up. Ammonia and nitrates are just part of the protein metabolism which in reptiles, the end product is uric acid. They do this because it is much less toxic than ammonia. There is a theory that the root of this trait is due to animals in hard shelled eggs needing a means to store embryonic waste until hatching without killing the embryo. In groups of amniotes that have evolved past the hard shelled egg (ex. most mammals) there is no need to waste the energy in metabolizing past the ammonia stage.

[Rushthezeppelin]

How interesting....So reptiles don't produce any ammonia?......I wonder how this relates to my idea of making a riparium sump for a garter water feature. Can uric acid be broken down by the usually nitrifying bacteria in water into nitrates for my plants to use? Also are plants as capable of uptaking uric acid quickly into their roots as say some are with ammonia/ammonium?

[joeysgreen]

I don't have the whole chain of protein metabolism memorized, but ammonia is produced, but rather than stopping there the snake continues to convert it into the safer uric acid. Many reptiles, like aquatic turtles, don't bother with this step because their aquatic lifestyle allows for easy release of nitrogenous waste, all the while not having to worry about conserving water.

I'd guess that it can be converted and utilized by the plants somehow but don't know for certain. I usually spot clean my enclosures, allowing composting of the bits that I miss.