In Breeding

[chris-uk]

I bought my 2.1 tetrataenia from three different breeders in the Netherlands. Result was that this trio produced around 85 healthy young of which the most are still doing well as far as I know. They were all from the same male.
One daughter I kept and placed her together with the other "old" male. She gave a first litter of 10 that all do well.
In this way I seem to have a good breeding line.
What will happen when I add one or two specimen from another line to the breeding group? In theory this should be an improvement. But since all European tetrataenia are related in one way or another, you will never know if it will be an improvement. No one will know this in front.
I have the idea that there are a number of breeding lines in Europe that do well and a number of other lines that produce poor quality juveniles. Most of the breeders with the last mentioned lines stop breeding tetrataenia.
In this way only the fittest will survive. Next to that, there is no choice. There are no specimen available that are not related and most probably there will never will be.
I now have some young that are the future breeders. I hope to exchange one or two specimen with other breeders and than wait and see if this "new line" produces healthy young or not.

Normally I like to "inbreed" as little as possible, but with tetrataenia this is not a realistic option. The only thing you can try to avoid is that primary related specimen (father-daughter, mother-son, brother-sister) are used to breed.
But on the other hand... maybe healthy, perfectly functioning animals that are primary related will produce better young than when you add other "related" specimen to your breeding group (nephew, niece, grandniece, etc...).
You will know for sure after a number of years.

Very important is, when you think one of the snakes is, to your opinion, not suited for breeding, you end its life or keep it yourself and do not breed with it.

Now there's an example of responsible breeding of tetrataenia. For me, buying a tetrataenia was a case of knowing where it came from (I wouldn't have bought one from a random ad on RFUK for example). I think there must be lines out there where the breeding pair consistently produce poor offspring, but unlike you the breeder keeps churning them out because they're fairly easy to sell for a high price (high for garters anyway).
Interesting point about having a good line which may be weakened by introducing a tetrataenia from another line. I can see how that would apply with tetrataenia whereas other species shouldn't be the same.

[Invisible Snake]

Is there anyway we can have a uk thamnophis stud book? With the growing interest in garters in recent years surely this would work??

I think that would be a great idea. I've seen this done with corn snakes, I've included a link as an example ACR - CCC'S WINDJAMMER

[Thamnophis]

Breeders that sell offspring which is of poor quality, that is indeed a problem.
Breeding and than selling the young snakes requires discipline and honor.
But this is not present in all breeders when they can earn some money. Such a shame!

[chris-uk]

Breeders that sell offspring which is of poor quality, that is indeed a problem.
Breeding and than selling the young snakes requires discipline and honor.
But this is not present in all breeders when they can earn some money. Such a shame!

Absolutely.

By the way, the male you sent over to me is doing nicely. He eats like a pig and I regularly see him exploring his viv.

[snake man]

Quick question if you have 1.1 of the same litter and then breed them you would end up with F1 offspring if the parents are unrelated?

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

Have the interest but am very limited time-wise, at least until August next year. We'd have to work out an appropriate pro-forma for us to add and tabulate our bloodlines. This would get very expansive, very quickly depending on levels of participation and really would need to be managed almost on a regional scale. Every breeder also needs a clear system for ID of litters and certificates to pass to buyers.
It has the danger of becoming too detailed for the average hobbyist.

I can't pretend to be as technically minded as you but I'd be willing to do my bit. I would of thought there would be enough of us to make it work with all uk species. I have the paperwork for mine and do not mind been transparent with my collection .

[Thamnophis]

Quick question if you have 1.1 of the same litter and then breed them you would end up with F1 offspring if the parents are unrelated?

It doesn't matter if the parents are related or not to become F1. And like you put it, the 1.1 are F1 (born in captivity, I presume) and their young are F2.

[chris-uk]

Have the interest but am very limited time-wise, at least until August next year. We'd have to work out an appropriate pro-forma for us to add and tabulate our bloodlines. This would get very expansive, very quickly depending on levels of participation and really would need to be managed almost on a regional scale. Every breeder also needs a clear system for ID of litters and certificates to pass to buyers.
It has the danger of becoming too detailed for the average hobbyist.

What does a studbook need? I've not seen one in action, but making some guesses...

- Every snake has a unique ID, which remains constant regardless as to the current owner.
- Basic details for each snake which won't change (DOB, sex, parents, breeder).
- Current details for each snake (current owner, weight/length on a particular date)
- A record of each mating or attempted mating to identify the other snake in the pair.
- A record of each litter (total born, total live births).

- Each keeper has a unique ID.
- Basic details about each keeper.
- Contact details for each keeper.

- A form to register a snake.
- A form to transfer ownership of a snake.
- A form to update the current details of the snake.
- A form to record the death of a snake.
- Search interface to enable anyone to find useful information in the studbook.

Systematically, it's not a huge task to build something that would do the above and allow the studbook to be searched. For example, using my company's software I could have a studbook up and running in a couple of days (whether I'd be allowed to use company resources is another matter entirely and with a system that cost real money to build and host you open a can of worms as to who is responsible and pays for it).
However, the value of the system would be limited by the number of keepers and breeders who didn't use it. Like Greg, I have the interest but not the time, but I think the majority of people keeping snakes (even garters) wouldn't care enough to use a studbook and keep it up-to-date.

If the EGSA have a studbook couldn't UK garters be part of that? I've not joined the EGSA because I don't speak any German and the majority of the association's business is carried out in German (not everything is translated, and almost all forum posts are German).

[CrazyHedgehog]

would this not be something that the IHS should look into? maybe to help strengthen the reputation of herping etc?
do other reptiles have this in the UK? does it depend on how protected they are? if I had tortoises and bred them, would I not need to prove they were captive bred?

[johnc79@hotmail.com]

would this not be something that the IHS should look into? maybe to help strengthen the reputation of herping etc?
do other reptiles have this in the UK? does it depend on how protected they are? if I had tortoises and bred them, would I not need to prove they were captive bred?

It's a great idea. I've been a member of the west midlands branch for a couple of years now but they do not have the interest in garters like we do. I guess it would not hurt to ask and quite rightly it would be something positive for the hobby. Saying that I do think the only way would be us thamnophis people to pull together . I'm thinking it does not have to be that complicated . For example if there was only 6 keepers interested , they swap details of there animals and if 1 keeper had a snake from one breeder he could loan it to another with a different background . (I think that makes sense??long day!). People keep records of breedings ect and swap young with the appropriate keepers. This is only an idea in my head so not full proof just a suggestion.