What subspecies are my Snakes?

[BUSHSNAKE]

Scale counts rarely help....origin is most important to know!!

[ConcinusMan]

Definitely

[EasternGirl]

Yeah but I thought we already knew origin and that there were parietalis, sirtalis sirtalis, and radix all in that area. Was I wrong about that?

[ConcinusMan]

Cuddles was caught in Western Ontario, in the area of Kenora and Anders a little while outside of Winnipeg in Steinbach, if that helps.

It does. Kenora rules out radix I think. Seems a little too far east and cuddles is definitely not a radix anyway. I haven't seen enough of Anders to tell. Can't even see the head/face.

[chris-uk]

I agree with Richard, Winnipeg area should rule out radix and it's also too far west for sirtarlis sirtarlis - which makes parietalis most likely for Anders (based on the range maps).
I think we may struggle with Cuddles, even with more detailed photos, because if I'm reading the maps correctly there's an area of intergradation near Kenora. I think Kenora itself falls into the sirtarlis sirtarlis range though, but you don't have to go too far west or south from Kenora to hit the intergradation zone or even move into parietalis territory. This is all assuming that the range maps (I'm looking at "Garter Snakes: Evolution and Ecology" which I believe is as good as we've got, but is obviously getting a few years out of date now) still hold true.

[BUSHSNAKE]

Yeah but I thought we already knew origin and that there were parietalis, sirtalis sirtalis, and radix all in that area. Was I wrong about that?

its either parietalis or sirtalis based on origin and the difference between radix and sirtalis is in the lateral stripes

[EasternGirl]

So we need to see a few more body shots of Cuddles then...

[BUSHSNAKE]

Cuddles? the one in the first pic? thats a sirtalis for sure...weather its sirtalis or parietalis is based on its origin,the 2 subspecies dont occur in the same areas

[EasternGirl]

I thought Cuddles was sirtalis sirtalis too. But other members said they thought parietalis...so I thought he was the one we were trying to figure out...I thought we were pretty sure that Anders was parietalis. Look back a couple of posts at what Chris wrote. Anders doesn't look like an eastern to me...he looks more like a parietalis.

[ConcinusMan]

Anders also has little white specks where a parietalis would usually have red. I'm thinking that Anders is a parietalis without red. That's not too uncommon.

"Northern garter" it is.